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***Master Ukraine Conflict thread***

BigBucnNole

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My brother (retired Colonel) has said that Russia would definitely give us a good bloody nose and maybe a broken jaw to start, but that we'd ultimately end up winning. We would get our shit together real fast. Our pilots are still better trained. Our Navy still better trained. Our Special Forces, etc also showed Russia what they'd be up against when we annihilated a Russian trained militia in Syria a couple of years ago.

Russian Spetnaz are bad dudes, but no better than our Seals, Delta's, Air Force Spec and Marine Spec guys. Hell, there is a strong belief our Rangers and Green Berrets are more than enough for them. Polish Grom want in on anything we do that counters those guys and they are salty as fuck.

Still, they would hit us as hard as they could to start. Air Superiority is the name of the game against the Russians. Get it and they are done.

Germans were much better trained than the Russians. Stalin had purged his experienced officers. Germans were fresh from beating that ass in France and had millions of soldiers poised to drive deep into Russia. Guess how it ended up?

If anyone thinks this HR Dept we have running shit today is even remotely as skilled as the German High Command in WW2, they are full of shit. Bad leadership is as American as apple pie. Even take the Gulf War for example, The original plan was an actual landing in the teeth of the Iraqis. Schwarzkopf had to be pushed into developing the "left hook", or was it right? For whatever reason our military system really breeds political ass kissers and it's unfortunate. Gets a lot of men killed.

Could you imagine Biden sitting up reviewing the troops and giving a speech as the troops marched by on their way to fight the deadliest enemy hell bent on the extermination of Americans? That's exactly what Stalin of all people did during the battle of Moscow. That's the level of resolve we're talking when fighting a major power. It aint Iraq 3.0.
 
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Jtrain80

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The Ukraine was Nulands doing...along with Killary Clinton under the watchful eye of the Nobel Peace Prize winner Obummer the Magnificant. . Lets sit and watch this horror story. There is considerable back up on this issue from many not spoken for states that sit and watch in horror. I have a feeling that this might not work well for our side.

Back to the good ole days. We had better stick w the mid level states like Iraq, Syria, and Libya.
 

AgEngDawg

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Germans were much better trained than the Russians. Stalin had purged his experienced officers. Germans were fresh from beating that ass in France and had millions of soldiers poised to drive deep into Russia. Guess how it ended up?

If anyone thinks this HR Dept we have running shit today is even remotely as skilled as the German High Command in WW2, they are full of shit. Bad leadership is as American as apple pie. Even take the Gulf War for example, The original plan was an actual landing in the teeth of the Iraqis. Schwarzkopf had to be pushed into developing the "left hook", or was it right? For whatever reason our military system really breeds political ass kissers and it's unfortunate. Gets a lot of men killed.

Could you imagine Biden sitting up reviewing the troops and giving a speech as the troops marched by on their way to fight the deadliest enemy hell bent on the extermination of Americans? That's exactly what Stalin of all people did during the battle of Moscow. That's the level of resolve we're talking when fighting a major power. It aint Iraq 3.0.

You can thank Colonel John Boyd (retired at the time) for the left hook strategy. He told Cheney that Schwarzkopf's plan was shit.

1618401850722.png
 

AgEngDawg

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You can thank Colonel John Boyd (retired at the time) for the left hook strategy. He told Cheney that Schwarzkopf's plan was shit.

View attachment 14982

And Schwarzkopf still called it the hail mary plan which chapped John Boyd's ass. Hail mary implies desperation.

It was not desperation, it was getting inside the Iraqi decision loop and fucking them up.
 

HunterPKP

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Germans were much better trained than the Russians. Stalin had purged his experienced officers. Germans were fresh from beating that ass in France and had millions of soldiers poised to drive deep into Russia. Guess how it ended up?

If anyone thinks this HR Dept we have running shit today is even remotely as skilled as the German High Command in WW2, they are full of shit. Bad leadership is as American as apple pie. Even take the Gulf War for example, The original plan was an actual landing in the teeth of the Iraqis. Schwarzkopf had to be pushed into developing the "left hook", or was it right? For whatever reason our military system really breeds political ass kissers and it's unfortunate. Gets a lot of men killed.

Could you imagine Biden sitting up reviewing the troops and giving a speech as the troops marched by on their way to fight the deadliest enemy hell bent on the extermination of Americans? That's exactly what Stalin of all people did during the battle of Moscow. That's the level of resolve we're talking when fighting a major power. It aint Iraq 3.0.

Not one thing you said is wrong. Still, comparing a military/country from 1943/4 to 2021 is an imperfect comparison. We do have leaders in the military that care about building fighting forces that can defend and attack. For instance our Air Force practices on average double per year if not more than the Russians. The Russian deficit there is largely due to resources or a lack thereof.

Like I said in one of my previous posts. They'd bloody our nose pretty good to start, but I in no way believe we're losing unless we get pulled into a protracted ground conflict. That means we never gained Air Superiority (which we should). If we got suckered into that, you are right. We won't win. Supply lines would be in decent shape for them and fighting an Army on their terrain is a recipe for disaster. Especially with the Russians having the largest tank force on the planet.
 

AgEngDawg

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Not one thing you said is wrong. Still, comparing a military/country from 1943/4 to 2021 is an imperfect comparison. We do have leaders in the military that care about building fighting forces that can defend and attack. For instance our Air Force practices on average double per year if not more than the Russians. The Russian deficit there is largely due to resources or a lack thereof.

Like I said in one of my previous posts. They'd bloody our nose pretty good to start, but I in no way believe we're losing unless we get pulled into a protracted ground conflict. That means we never gained Air Superiority (which we should). If we got suckered into that, you are right. We won't win. Supply lines would be in decent shape for them and fighting an Army on their terrain is a recipe for disaster. Especially with the Russians having the largest tank force on the planet.

The problem is they max out at Colonel (Army, AF, and Marines) or Captain (in the navy) while a dude that puts "How to be an Antiracist" on the official Navy reading list is Chief of Naval Operations.

Generals and Admirals life purpose in the military is to get promoted with few exceptions.

Patton being the most glaring exception.
 

HunterPKP

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The problem is they max out at Colonel (Army, AF, and Marines) or Captain (in the navy) while a dude that puts "How to be an Antiracist" on the official Navy reading list is Chief of Naval Operations.

Generals and Admirals life purpose in the military is to get promoted with few exceptions.

Patton being the most glaring exception.

Very true. My brother complained about the "internal politics" often. For instance, when he had Brigade Command in the Middle East, he was only granted one THAAD when his strategy called for 3-4 and was woefully undersupplied on PAT III missiles. Not the batteries.

That bloody nose I speak of is what will force our hand to take some gloves off. We've got some fighters at high levels who actually do know what to do when that happens. You're right though that they are outnumbered.
 

BigBucnNole

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Not one thing you said is wrong. Still, comparing a military/country from 1943/4 to 2021 is an imperfect comparison. We do have leaders in the military that care about building fighting forces that can defend and attack. For instance our Air Force practices on average double per year if not more than the Russians. The Russian deficit there is largely due to resources or a lack thereof.

Like I said in one of my previous posts. They'd bloody our nose pretty good to start, but I in no way believe we're losing unless we get pulled into a protracted ground conflict. That means we never gained Air Superiority (which we should). If we got suckered into that, you are right. We won't win. Supply lines would be in decent shape for them and fighting an Army on their terrain is a recipe for disaster. Especially with the Russians having the largest tank force on the planet.

Pretending Russia are Iraqis is the problem we have. Like you just said, “we should have air superiority.” Russia has the most sophisticated AA systems on the planet. Their fighters train less because they have a fundamentally different role of supporting the AA system versus ours who are designed to go into hostile territory without any real support.

And this kind of rolls into my problem with Ukraine. We just move on in there completely ignoring that there is a massive nuclear power next door. And it’s not like we moved in in 1996 when Russia is teetering on anarchy. This is Obama and Hillary shit. Before them our handling of Russia was by and large funding and counter funding certain candidates to get a pro western government in the region. Russia/ USSR does and did the same shit in Central and South America. It’s great power competition. Hillary’s crew roles in and outright forces a coup to put their people directly in charge. I still can’t get over the Treasury Secretary of Ukraine being from the tiny village of Chicago Illinois.

They took this “color revolutions” model they created in Libya and spread through the Mideast, and used it in Ukraine and then used it in Russia itself. If that isn’t the height of arrogance, I don’t really know what the fuck is. They think because we beat a country that could barely field a single armored division in the desert, that suddenly everyone is at that level. And it’s one thing for the general American populace to be arrogant equate a high budget to winning wars and doing whatever the fuck we want. It’s a whole other level of stupidity that decision makers think the same thing.
 
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Jtrain80

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Pretending Russia are Iraqis is the problem we have. Like you just said, “we should have air superiority.” Russia has the most sophisticated AA systems on the planet. Their fighters train less because they have a fundamentally different role of supporting the AA system versus ours who are designed to go into hostile territory without any real support.

And this kind of rolls into my problem with Ukraine. We just move on in there completely ignoring that there is a massive nuclear power next door. And it’s not like we moved in in 1996 when Russia is teetering on anarchy. This Obama and Hillary shit. Before them our handling of Russia was by and large funding and counter funding certain candidates to get a pro western government in the region. Russia/ USSR does and did the same shit in Central and South America. It’s great power competition. Hillary’s crew roles in and outright forces a coup to put their people directly in charge. I still can’t get over the Treasury Secretary of Ukraine being from the tiny village of Chicago Illinois.

They took this “color revolutions” model they created in Libya and spread through the Mideast, and used it in Ukraine and then used it in Russia itself. If that isn’t the height of arrogance, I don’t really know what the fuck is. They think because we beat a country that could barely field a single armored division in the desert, that suddenly everyone is. And it’s one thing for the general American populace to be arrogant equate a high budget to winning wars and doing whatever the fuck we want. It’s a whole other level of stupidity that decision makers think the same thing.

I sure do enjoy your posts, if you dont mind me asking, what do you do for a living and did you serve?
 

CurtOFD78

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Wars aren't fought or won like they were in 1941-45.

I agree with your second point though.

People being happy in an economy and supporting their government typically has very little to do with GDP size.
I agree with you that modern warfare is different than what it was 80 years ago. But how much of our military relies on electronics and computers, which could be wiped out with a few EMPs? I think @BigBucnNole has a point to in that if it comes down to it, the next global war (God forbid) may just come down to boots on the ground.
 

CurtOFD78

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Good article by Colonel Douglas MacGregor. I especially found the following enlightening:

"Fighting in Eastern Ukraine will produce heavy casualties on both sides. Russian and Ukrainian soldiers are courageous, intelligent, and ruthless. None of them are “woke.” All are motivated by patriotism, ingrained discipline, and a strong professional military ethos."

That article is downright scary. If I'm reading it correctly, it's saying if Putin decides to go to war with Ukraine, the US has no choice but to intervene militarily. That's a fight we don't want at all in my opinion.
 

AgEngDawg

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That article is downright scary. If I'm reading it correctly, it's saying if Putin decides to go to war with Ukraine, the US has no choice but to intervene militarily. That's a fight we don't want at all in my opinion.

Yep and the geography definitely favors Putin.

At least in the cold war if it went hot we would be fighting in Germany with the Soviets having long supply lines.

In a Ukraine conflict, Russia is right there.
 

AgEngDawg

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By the way, I grew up Southern Baptist in deep rural south Georgia. I remember revival weeks growing up. They used to be one day each revival week that they would preach on Armageddon and the end of time.

I seem to remember one thing that was mentioned that one of the pastors thought Russia going into Syria and Israel from the north might be involved in Armageddon.

Well, Russia is in Syria right now. Jes sayin.
 

BigBucnNole

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I sure do enjoy your posts, if you dont mind me asking, what do you do for a living and did you serve?

I did not serve. I have spent my whole life in policy though. I worked in the Florida Legislature and now I consult on the private side. I have a pretty good idea of the incentive process behind agencies, politicians, and the exec.

Then I do a lot of work with industry associations, chambers of commerce, and political parties. I just apply that logic here.
 

casfoto

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We'll be alright. The navy will at least have their masks on if shit hits the fan.
How many of our ships will be out there--- lets see...10. It will take 10 missles to bury our Navy. If they really want to have that happen...I guess we will watch and see.
No one wants to fight in eastern Europe for a former soviet republic.

We also have to worry about that escalating to nukes dropping which it certainly could.
No doubt. Putin said that during WW2 we lost 25 million people and that we are not going to have another war on our turf....we will be bringing the war to you. I believe he is a man of his word. The equalizer here is the horrible thought of a nuke hitting here. We shall see.
 

BigBucnNole

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By the way, I grew up Southern Baptist in deep rural south Georgia. I remember revival weeks growing up. They used to be one day each revival week that they would preach on Armageddon and the end of time.

I seem to remember one thing that was mentioned that one of the pastors thought Russia going into Syria and Israel from the north might be involved in Armageddon.

Well, Russia is in Syria right now. Jes sayin.

That’s just competition. We, I think, are the largest natural gas producers in the world but Russia has their gas pipelines going into Europe which gives them a ton of leverage. We have to transport ours as LNG to deliver. The added transport costs and extra steps makes ours unmarketable. And the low price of gas currently screws us even more.

To circumvent the Reds, we are building pipelines from the Mideast through Syria and Turkey to Europe. No coincidence that we are fighting in Syria and arguing with Turkey and Russia is poking its head in.
 

AgEngDawg

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That’s just competition. We, I think, are the largest natural gas producers in the world but Russia has their gas pipelines going into Europe which gives them a ton of leverage. We have to transport ours as LNG to deliver. The added transport costs and extra steps makes ours unmarketable. And the low price of gas currently screws us even more.

To circumvent the Reds, we are building pipelines from the Mideast through Syria and Turkey to Europe. No coincidence that we are fighting in Syria and arguing with Turkey and Russia is poking its head in.

Yea, but there is no reason that energy could not be the flashpoint.
 

HunterPKP

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Pretending Russia are Iraqis is the problem we have. Like you just said, “we should have air superiority.” Russia has the most sophisticated AA systems on the planet. Their fighters train less because they have a fundamentally different role of supporting the AA system versus ours who are designed to go into hostile territory without any real support.

And this kind of rolls into my problem with Ukraine. We just move on in there completely ignoring that there is a massive nuclear power next door. And it’s not like we moved in in 1996 when Russia is teetering on anarchy. This is Obama and Hillary shit. Before them our handling of Russia was by and large funding and counter funding certain candidates to get a pro western government in the region. Russia/ USSR does and did the same shit in Central and South America. It’s great power competition. Hillary’s crew roles in and outright forces a coup to put their people directly in charge. I still can’t get over the Treasury Secretary of Ukraine being from the tiny village of Chicago Illinois.

They took this “color revolutions” model they created in Libya and spread through the Mideast, and used it in Ukraine and then used it in Russia itself. If that isn’t the height of arrogance, I don’t really know what the fuck is. They think because we beat a country that could barely field a single armored division in the desert, that suddenly everyone is at that level. And it’s one thing for the general American populace to be arrogant equate a high budget to winning wars and doing whatever the fuck we want. It’s a whole other level of stupidity that decision makers think the same thing.

Real good post. If this was 91-92, pretending they were Iraqis would've been somewhat accurate. We realized their Soviet trained Republican Guard and their T72 tanks were inadequate both in systems and training. They've learned a ton since then obviously.

Still, your point is valid. Especially their AA Systems and the way they position those Systems. Their best system is the S400, but Buk 11 is still extremely capable. Don't believe the S500 is operational yet and if it is, it's not deployable in scale yet. Still, if we've got F22s and F35s on station we have a strategic advantage. Our Gen 4 and 4.5 fighters would be in trouble. A pretty good graphic about our perceived capabilities there in concert with theirs is below.

s-400-detection-range.jpg


If true, we've got a strategic and tactical advantage there from range. Our F35s ability to interdict SAM systems, ground, and sea forces acting as an airborne CINC system that utilize multiple platforms across multiple branches could be game changer here. F35 has problems, but it's proven it's mettle there in war games/maneuvers. In theory, we can attack from range and go back to stealth before a S400 could acquire either our F22 or F35.

Question is where do we station our boys? Can't put them in Ukraine unless Western Ukraine. Russia would attack that with regularity. Also doubt Erdogan would allow us to station at Incirlik. Southern Poland? Would need refuelers no matter where we would come from. Very tough situation.
 

AgEngDawg

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Real good post. If this was 91-92, pretending they were Iraqis would've been somewhat accurate. We realized their Soviet trained Republican Guard and their T72 tanks were inadequate both in systems and training. They've learned a ton since then obviously.

Still, your point is valid. Especially their AA Systems and the way they position those Systems. Their best system is the S400, but Buk 11 is still extremely capable. Don't believe the S500 is operational yet and if it is, it's not deployable in scale yet. Still, if we've got F22s and F35s on station we have a strategic advantage. Our Gen 4 and 4.5 fighters would be in trouble. A pretty good graphic about our perceived capabilities there in concert with theirs is below.

s-400-detection-range.jpg


If true, we've got a strategic and tactical advantage there from range. Our F35s ability to interdict SAM systems, ground, and sea forces acting as an airborne CINC system that utilize multiple platforms across multiple branches could be game changer here. F35 has problems, but it's proven it's mettle there in war games/maneuvers. In theory, we can attack from range and go back to stealth before a S400 could acquire either our F22 or F35.

Question is where do we station our boys? Can't put them in Ukraine unless Western Ukraine. Russia would attack that with regularity. Also doubt Erdogan would allow us to station at Incirlik. Southern Poland? Would need refuelers no matter where we would come from. Very tough situation.

Another question, would the US accept casualties on a scale we have not seen since the late 1960s? We have had an easy run recently.

It has been more than 50 years since the height of the Vietnam war.

What if a whole Forward Operating Base is annihilated?
 
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HunterPKP

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Another question, would the US accept casualties on a scale we have not seen since the late 1960s? We have had an easy run recently.

It has been more than 50 years since the height of the Vietnam war.

What if a whole Forward Operating Base in annihilated?

That's a real good question. I don't know that the public has the appetite for it unless they hit first. They sink a destroyer in the Black Sea, maybe both? The Moderates and Right Wing will be more than happy to seek retribution. Destroy a FOB as well when we're not engaged? Same story. That would be enough to sway public opinion from my perspective. Even if we are engaged, they may still lean towards retribution. The left? Nope. You could explode a dirty bomb in Portland and Tlaib and her cronies would ask to dismantle any protection we have.

Here's a major problem our current public presents. The vast majority doesn't understand what NATO means or protection agreements we have in place. They also don't understand why when we and our allies say we will intervene.

One thing to truly consider. I do not know if Russia has changed it in recent years, but the Soviets and Russia in the near time after the collapse had no war scenario with the USA and/or NATO that lasted past 10 days that did not end in some degree of Nuclear exchange. Something to think about there.
 

REMESSIS

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Russian Spetnaz are bad dudes, but no better than our Seals, Delta's, Air Force Spec and Marine Spec guys. Hell, there is a strong belief our Rangers and Green Berrets are more than enough for them. Polish Grom want in on anything we do that counters those guys and they are salty as fuck.

Spetsnaz basically just means Special Purpose troops. The vast majority of Spetsnaz formations are equivalent to Army and Marine reconnaissance battalions.
What people in the west have always regarded as Spetsnaz would be units like Alfa, Vympel, and Zaslon. These would be somewhat analogous to our “Tier One” units.
There are various levels to be sure, just realize when you hear Spetsnaz, it could mean anything from an infantry battalion scout platoon up to CAG / DEVGRU.
Russia is also different from us in that their versions of the CIA, FBI, and DIA have their own Special operations units organic to those organizations.
Now, the reason I quoted this, was it appears you have besmirched my beloved Ranger Regiment. Any particular reason for this blasphemy?
 

HunterPKP

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Spetsnaz basically just means Special Purpose troops. The vast majority of Spetsnaz formations are equivalent to Army and Marine reconnaissance battalions.
What people in the west have always regarded as Spetsnaz would be units like Alfa, Vympel, and Zaslon. These would be somewhat analogous to our “Tier One” units.
There are various levels to be sure, just realize when you hear Spetsnaz, it could mean anything from an infantry battalion scout platoon up to CAG / DEVGRU.
Russia is also different from us in that their versions of the CIA, FBI, and DIA have their own Special operations units organic to those organizations.
Now, the reason I quoted this, was it appears you have besmirched my beloved Ranger Regiment. Any particular reason for this blasphemy?

Nope, not at all. I know the Rangers are badass. My nephew is a current Ranger from class 04/18.

Pics of said 04/18 Class ceremony.


qUppSF5.jpg


InGUGIc.jpg


LWdK7HE.jpg
 
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America 1st

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I agree with you that modern warfare is different than what it was 80 years ago. But how much of our military relies on electronics and computers, which could be wiped out with a few EMPs? I think @BigBucnNole has a point to in that if it comes down to it, the next global war (God forbid) may just come down to boots on the ground.
It's really anyone's guess.
 

HunterPKP

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I agree with you that modern warfare is different than what it was 80 years ago. But how much of our military relies on electronics and computers, which could be wiped out with a few EMPs? I think @BigBucnNole has a point to in that if it comes down to it, the next global war (God forbid) may just come down to boots on the ground.

My understanding is that our doctrine is scorched earth here. Dubya said when he was in office that if you EMP the USA or our troops in the field that we reserve the right to EMP the globe. My understanding is that Obama didn't change that stance during his tenure and no way Trump would.
 

America 1st

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They start dropping EMPs, tanks, planes are the least of our worries. Someone does an EMP and nukes are about to start dropping.

No one will absorb an EMP attack likely from very high nuclear explosion without escalating.
Exactly my thoughts.

It's all about how things escalate and imo it would be tough to keep it from getting out of hand without a SKRONG CiC. Puddin just ain't gonna cut it.
 

AgEngDawg

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Exactly my thoughts.

It's all about how things escalate and imo it would be tough to keep it from getting out of hand without a SKRONG CiC. Puddin just ain't gonna cut it.

Makes me wonder, what are the cases in history that a country has been led by a mentally deficient Commander in Chief during war time?

I can see why China and Russia are being aggressive.
 

CurtOFD78

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My understanding is that our doctrine is scorched earth here. Dubya said when he was in office that if you EMP the USA or our troops in the field that we reserve the right to EMP the globe. My understanding is that Obama didn't change that stance during his tenure and no way Trump would.
The only issue with a global EMP would be that we have many allies that would be affected by it. I don't think that would go over well.
 

catfishpunter

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By the way, I grew up Southern Baptist in deep rural south Georgia. I remember revival weeks growing up. They used to be one day each revival week that they would preach on Armageddon and the end of time.

I seem to remember one thing that was mentioned that one of the pastors thought Russia going into Syria and Israel from the north might be involved in Armageddon.

Well, Russia is in Syria right now. Jes sayin.

You're referring to Ezekiel 38, the prophecy regarding Magog, which would invade Israel from the far north with a massive army.
 

casfoto

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I don’t think it’s too complex, I think our management/ admin system isn’t capable of handling it. It’s dated and unchanged since WW2.

Plus the added factor of power residing at the top, the government is run like the politburo handled the USSR. All the decisions are made at the top and filtered down rigidly and somehow we think one size fits all is great for law but nothing else.

I think reform in the next few years is going to focus on breaking that power structure tied to rigidity. If I make a descision at the top, it gives me ultimate power but the trade off is pissed off people and an inefficient system. Sometimes we have to let go and let the decision process take place on the front line. That’s essentially how the military is run, therefore there is precedent.
The danger I am referring to in complexity...is that one thing can take the entire system down. (why use a nuke to destroy a city when you can use an EMP). In the middle 1859 the telegraph offices started on fire and all the lines burnt down...It was called the Carrington Event. They had no idea what happened but the entire industry was stopped. It took some time to get it going again but what they did not know was a massive CME (solar flare) caused this to happen..it had the power of an estimated ten billion atomic bombs.
At least they could still eat and have fresh water because they have not reached our level. They were so much more self reliant.
We are now at a point of war with three global powers that have the capacity to use a nuclear weapon to blow out all of our electronic infrastructure that it is so imbedded in our system of every day life that it will stop you from pumping gas and stop the water pumps. We are so tied to this sytem that we will be a victum of our own devices.
 

Jtrain80

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The danger I am referring to in complexity...is that one thing can take the entire system down. (why use a nuke to destroy a city when you can use an EMP). In the middle 1859 the telegraph offices started on fire and all the lines burnt down...It was called the Carrington Event. They had no idea what happened but the entire industry was stopped. It took some time to get it going again but what they did not know was a massive CME (solar flare) caused this to happen..it had the power of an estimated ten billion atomic bombs.
At least they could still eat and have fresh water because they have not reached our level. They were so much more self reliant.
We are now at a point of war with three global powers that have the capacity to use a nuclear weapon to blow out all of our electronic infrastructure that it is so imbedded in our system of every day life that it will stop you from pumping gas and stop the water pumps. We are so tied to this sytem that we will be a victum of our own devices.

Preppers dont sound so stupid these days.
 

BigBucnNole

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We are such a clown show. We dont' like Russia because we don't like their brand of "democracy." Whatever it is doesn't follow our church doctrine. Guarantee you our hands are behind cutting off water to Crimea as well. Now we pull this shit.

Let's hypothetically pretend we get rid of Putin (or even could get rid of him), is our shit government stupid enough to think it's going to be sunshine and rainbows with "free and open" elections suddenly? They've had a strong man running the country/ empire since Ivan the Terrible. But no, "everyone wants to believe in the true lord," errr I mean democracy. It's frightening how naïve and corrupt we are.
 

CurtOFD78

Elite
Joined
Jan 8, 2021
Messages
659
That's a real good question. I don't know that the public has the appetite for it unless they hit first. They sink a destroyer in the Black Sea, maybe both? The Moderates and Right Wing will be more than happy to seek retribution. Destroy a FOB as well when we're not engaged? Same story. That would be enough to sway public opinion from my perspective. Even if we are engaged, they may still lean towards retribution. The left? Nope. You could explode a dirty bomb in Portland and Tlaib and her cronies would ask to dismantle any protection we have.

Here's a major problem our current public presents. The vast majority doesn't understand what NATO means or protection agreements we have in place. They also don't understand why when we and our allies say we will intervene.

One thing to truly consider. I do not know if Russia has changed it in recent years, but the Soviets and Russia in the near time after the collapse had no war scenario with the USA and/or NATO that lasted past 10 days that did not end in some degree of Nuclear exchange. Something to think about there.
In reference to the bold print- Our enemies have been watching and learning our ways for a long time. I have little doubt that China, North Korea, Russia, and perhaps Iran/Iraq/ISIS/Al Queda etc have been studying and taking notes. China has been stealing our technology and for all we know may have equal or better military tech and capabilities. There are alot of countries that do not like the US and our way of life. There is always someone who decides to step up and challenge the bully on the block. It may be a matter of time for the military challenge. Economically, I'd say we are seeing it right now.
 

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