***Master Ukraine Conflict thread***

[BigBucnNole]

Because economies keep people happy.

Russia isn't swarming the Chinese. The have no reason to; China keeps the US distracted.

The Soviet Union falling is why the above model doesn't work in the real world as just one example.

Population and production capacity aren't the most important factors or China would've told the US to kick rocks already as another example.

The above model won WW2. We’re talking war, not day to day living. Russia and China could wipe out their entire frontline tank numbers today and the Russians have 10k+ in storage... Sounds like a swarm to me.

Point is, economy's esoteric GDP size is irrelevant when it comes to war.

 

[America 1st]

The above model won WW2. We’re talking war, not day to day living. Russia and China could wipe out their entire frontline tank numbers today and the Russians have 10k+ in storage... Sounds like a swarm to me.

Point is, economy's esoteric GDP size is irrelevant when it comes to war.

Wars aren't fought or won like they were in 1941-45.

I agree with your second point though.

People being happy in an economy and supporting their government typically has very little to do with GDP size.

 

[BigBucnNole]

Wars aren't fought or won like they were in 1941-45.

I agree with your second point though.

People being happy in an economy and supporting their government typically has very little to do with GDP size.

I think they absolutely are fought and will be won like WW2. We have this dependence on over engineered crap tied to our military industrial complex because it creates jobs and campaign donations. Reality is all the satellites, communications equipment, over engineered planes and tanks, don’t last two weeks. We either go nuclear, or everything reverts back to the 50’s and 60’s in offensive technology.

 

[BigBucnNole]

Interesting reddit comment:

After Russia invaded Crimea, Ukraine shut down the North Crimean Canal, which had been supplying over 90% of the freshwater used in Crimea. This has devastated Crimean agriculture, and is creating a significant financial strain on Russia as they have to find alternative ways to provide food and drinking water to the peninsula.

It was made even worse last year, as Crimea suffered a drought which further reduced the available water. Russia responded in October of last year, announcing plans to build desalination plants. However, Russia has never had to build one before, lacks the know-how, and international companies are unwilling to take on contracts in the illegally occupied area.

Last month, the Ukrainian government reaffirmed that they won't turn the water back on until Crimea is returned to them.

It's therefore likely that Putin is planning, or at least considering, to further invade Ukraine to capture the source of the canal, and turn the water back on by force.

 

[America 1st]

I think they absolutely are fought and will be won like WW2. We have this dependence on over engineered crap tied to our military industrial complex because it creates jobs and campaign donations. Reality is all the satellites, communications equipment, over engineered planes and tanks, don’t last two weeks. We either go nuclear, or everything reverts back to the 50’s and 60’s in offensive technology.

Agree to disagree.

Missiles make warfare significantly different now than at anytime before and that's just one facet.

Interesting reddit comment:

After Russia invaded Crimea, Ukraine shut down the North Crimean Canal, which had been supplying over 90% of the freshwater used in Crimea. This has devastated Crimean agriculture, and is creating a significant financial strain on Russia as they have to find alternative ways to provide food and drinking water to the peninsula.

It was made even worse last year, as Crimea suffered a drought which further reduced the available water. Russia responded in October of last year, announcing plans to build desalination plants. However, Russia has never had to build one before, lacks the know-how, and international companies are unwilling to take on contracts in the illegally occupied area.

Last month, the Ukrainian government reaffirmed that they won't turn the water back on until Crimea is returned to them.

It's therefore likely that Putin is planning, or at least considering, to further invade Ukraine to capture the source of the canal, and turn the water back on by force.

 

[hmt5000]

I don't know why people care about economies when you factor in sheer amounts of resources and population. The USSR pre Barbarossa economy is a shadow of what it is today. Germany, for example, had about a 40% larger GDP at the time and we all know how that ended. Cash doesn't mean shit when push comes to shove, what matters is the government and their willingness to put a gun to their populations' head. When you compare the level of output a major developed economy in 2021 capability compared to WW2, there is virtually no ending to the amount of war material a nation could produce today.

For example Ford alone produced 5.5 million cars in 2019. Russia made 1.2 million total cars that same year, and China 2.8 million. The US produced 68k tanks through the entirety of WW2. Now granted shit is much more complex these days and it's harder to retool a car factory for MBT production, but... you can quickly get to something middling between modern equipment and WW2 and produce it to the tune of hundreds of thousands if we put our mind to it.

The problem we have today is that our crap is over engineered and is a pseudo jobs program, we only have one factory producing Abrams tanks and they don't really even want to do it. The F35 is assembled in something like 48 states for each plane. None of that shit matters because all the good stuff is blown to hell in the opening salvos of a modern war. We are at WW1 levels for how much cheaper it is to defend territory versus attack it. Because of that, it's the monkey models that matter and everyone is capable of producing. When it comes to modern day Russia, they are probably second to none and more than capable of swarming the Chinese. Their entire cold war doctrine was built on the concept.

Most people don't understand what Russia lost when the republics left.

All that man power and economic production is gone. Half of that red area is tundra.

 

[hmt5000]

I think they absolutely are fought and will be won like WW2. We have this dependence on over engineered crap tied to our military industrial complex because it creates jobs and campaign donations. Reality is all the satellites, communications equipment, over engineered planes and tanks, don’t last two weeks. We either go nuclear, or everything reverts back to the 50’s and 60’s in offensive technology.

Yea... If war actually breaks out those countries will nuke all the satellites because they are behind us so they will want to even the playing field. All the computer shit will be gone in the first month.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Most people don't understand what Russia lost when the republics left.

All that man power and economic production is gone. Half of that red area is tundra.

Does anyone else like saying Azerbaijan? It just rolls off the tongue.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Most people don't understand what Russia lost when the republics left.

All that man power and economic production is gone. Half of that red area is tundra.

Estonia has some hot women btw.

 

[preshlock]

Some truth to what you are saying, but also some completely slanted bullshit in here. All countries lie to other countries. It is fact that the Soviet Union still wanted to expand the Warsaw Pact to get even better warm water ports, but knew to do so would cause WW3. Also, the invasion of Afghanistan was just the first step. The next move was a move into Iran to secure warm water ports for their Navy and ensure oil returning to Russia. Russia was far behind where they are now in oil and natural gas production in the late 70s early 80s.

I'm not saying our approach is the truly right one, but we aren't the only imperialists on the block. The Soviet Union and now Russia have being doing it as well for a solid century. China is the newer one and their thirst has no bounds.

why would the Soviets invade Afghanistan before Iran, if that was their ultimate goal? The Soviets never really fully incorporated its Muslim population in the Central SSRs and were, rightfully, very concerned about the Islamic fanatics in Afghanistan.

 

[casfoto]

Russia's main problem is that we keep putting countries in NATO that were formerly in the Soviet sphere. They hate that shit.

George H.W. Bush did promise the US would not do that, but Russia never got it in writing.

Always get it in writing.

It seems that if it was in writing it wouldn't have mattered at all. There is no way that we would honor any agreement. Please give me a few. We cant even do this simple contract to the people of the US. We are now under criminal law. And have been for years. Honor is a foreign word. Contracts are to be broken the mintue they are signed. As Pompeo said, we lie, we cheat, we steal. WTF?

 

[Chris Farley]

Have you people never heard of @Alaskaguy?

Ukrainian women are fun to visit, but DO NOT BRING HOME!

Go on...

 

[Jtrain80]

Go on...

Guy was a legend on Rivals before they ran him off.

Lived in Alaska and liked Ukrainian women. Brought one home that made several attempts on his life. He knew of this happening to other fine American gentlemen.

Now he goes just goes and visits. The political upheaval made the girls like US dollars even more.

 

[hmt5000]

why would the Soviets invade Afghanistan before Iran, if that was their ultimate goal? The Soviets never really fully incorporated its Muslim population in the Central SSRs and were, rightfully, very concerned about the Islamic fanatics in Afghanistan.

There was a large commie movement in Afghan for some reason at that time. Not sure Iran has ever had a commie leaning movement. Russia was kinda helping the local Commie group and just decided to take the whole country.

 

[preshlock]

There was a large commie movement in Afghan for some reason at that time. Not sure Iran has ever had a commie leaning movement. Russia was kinda helping the local Commie group and just decided to take the whole country.

right I was just pointing out the Soviet designs on Iran, at least from direct military action, were over exaggerated.

it was the murder of communists in Afghanistan, who were teaching local women how to read, by Islamic fanatics that was the immediate justification for the Soviet invasion.

 

[hmt5000]

right I was just pointing out the Soviet designs on Iran, at least from direct military action, were over exaggerated.

it was the murder of communists in Afghanistan, who were teaching local women how to read, by Islamic fanatics that was the immediate justification for the Soviet invasion.

I had forgot that. I watched a documentary on the invasion back around 98 or so. lot of drinking and drugs in between.

 

[America 1st]

Yea... If war actually breaks out those countries will nuke all the satellites because they are behind us so they will want to even the playing field. All the computer shit will be gone in the first month.

Once nukes fly it doesn't really matter.

One bomb might be able to be deescalated but anything more than that means nuclear holocaust and we all lose.

 

[casfoto]

We have never been in such a complex situation before. The complexity of our money/communication/banking/military satellites...et al show our intelligence in designing these things but they also have us in a bind. If there is war and an EMP takes our system down, then we will be back in the midieival days. Every thing will stop. Food production and distribution with JIT setups etc will be a problem. That is why I suggest decentralization..smaller is better. Our sence of community will comeback instead of FB. People will behave or it will get ugly for them.

 

[BigBucnNole]

We have never been in such a complex situation before. The complexity of our money/communication/banking/military satellites...et al show our intelligence in designing these things but they also have us in a bind. If there is war and an EMP takes our system down, then we will be back in the mideival days. Every thing will stop. Food production and distribution with JIT setups etc will be a problem. That is why I suggest decentralization..smaller is better. Our sence of community will comeback instead of FB. People will behave or it will get ugly for them.

I don’t think it’s too complex, I think our management/ admin system isn’t capable of handling it. It’s dated and unchanged since WW2.

Plus the added factor of power residing at the top, the government is run like the politburo handled the USSR. All the decisions are made at the top and filtered down rigidly and somehow we think one size fits all is great for law but nothing else.

I think reform in the next few years is going to focus on breaking that power structure tied to rigidity. If I make a descision at the top, it gives me ultimate power but the trade off is pissed off people and an inefficient system. Sometimes we have to let go and let the decision process take place on the front line. That’s essentially how the military is run, therefore there is precedent.

 

[quickfeet]

We have never been in such a complex situation before. The complexity of our money/communication/banking/military satellites...et al show our intelligence in designing these things but they also have us in a bind. If there is war and an EMP takes our system down, then we will be back in the mideival days. Every thing will stop. Food production and distribution with JIT setups etc will be a problem. That is why I suggest decentralization..smaller is better. Our sence of community will comeback instead of FB. People will behave or it will get ugly for them.

Good looking pup in that avatar!

 

[HunterPKP]

why would the Soviets invade Afghanistan before Iran, if that was their ultimate goal? The Soviets never really fully incorporated its Muslim population in the Central SSRs and were, rightfully, very concerned about the Islamic fanatics in Afghanistan.

I just re-read up on this. You're actually right. They did want to go in to Iran and after they had "conquered" Afghanistan, but for the same reason of quelling fanatical spread. Oil and warm weather ports were a by product they were keenly aware of at the time.

Going in to Afghanistan was also to destabilize and weaken Pakistan at the time which was very Western friendly.

 

[casfoto]

Good looking pup in that avatar!

Thanks ...a very wise dog. Left this place about 2 years ago. Smartest dog ever. Austrailan!

 

[casfoto]

The above model won WW2. We’re talking war, not day to day living. Russia and China could wipe out their entire frontline tank numbers today and the Russians have 10k+ in storage... Sounds like a swarm to me.

Point is, economy's esoteric GDP size is irrelevant when it comes to war.

Greece was far smaller than Persia and kicked thier butt...as the Oracle of Delphi's message...Surety brings Destructioon. There have many examples of smaller countries with less in every way kick the ass of a well suited army. history is filled with them.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Good article by Colonel Douglas MacGregor. I especially found the following enlightening:

"Fighting in Eastern Ukraine will produce heavy casualties on both sides. Russian and Ukrainian soldiers are courageous, intelligent, and ruthless. None of them are “woke.” All are motivated by patriotism, ingrained discipline, and a strong professional military ethos."

Facing the Facts of War with Russia

The Biden administration appears willing to get us into a fight we’re not ready for.

www.theamericanconservative.com

 

[preshlock]

I just re-read up on this. You're actually right. They did want to go in to Iran and after they had "conquered" Afghanistan, but for the same reason of quelling fanatical spread. Oil and warm weather ports were a by product they were keenly aware of at the time.

Going in to Afghanistan was also to destabilize and weaken Pakistan at the time which was very Western friendly.

right we didn't think there would be that much support for backing Muslims and the Soviet designs for warm water ports were well known. So we just played that up instead. Kind of like a rehashed version of the old Domino Theory

 

[AgEngDawg]

Good article by Colonel Douglas MacGregor. I especially found the following enlightening:

"Fighting in Eastern Ukraine will produce heavy casualties on both sides. Russian and Ukrainian soldiers are courageous, intelligent, and ruthless. None of them are “woke.” All are motivated by patriotism, ingrained discipline, and a strong professional military ethos."

Facing the Facts of War with Russia

The Biden administration appears willing to get us into a fight we’re not ready for.

www.theamericanconservative.com

Also, from MacGregor:

"President Biden’s apparent guarantee of U.S. support to Ukraine’s president suggests he’s also drinking deeply from the poison well of failed American statecraft and generalship, a wellspring of uncreative minds with no appreciation for real warfare. Twenty years of desultory battles against weak opponents (insurgents without armies, air forces, and air defenses) has not elevated much warfighting talent to the senior ranks of the armed forces to cope with a radically changed warfighting environment."

He is correct. For all his good points, you would not pick David Patreus to command an army in a major great power conflict.

I do want to know if he banged that chick from Tampa though. She was hot.

 

[Jtrain80]

Also, from MacGregor:

"President Biden’s apparent guarantee of U.S. support to Ukraine’s president suggests he’s also drinking deeply from the poison well of failed American statecraft and generalship, a wellspring of uncreative minds with no appreciation for real warfare. Twenty years of desultory battles against weak opponents (insurgents without armies, air forces, and air defenses) has not elevated much warfighting talent to the senior ranks of the armed forces to cope with a radically changed warfighting environment."

He is correct. For all his good points, you would not pick David Patreus to command an army in a major great power conflict.

I do want to know if he banged that chick from Tampa though. She was hot.

If Biden did get his wet dream, do you think Americans would want any part in that War? Would they join or have to be drafted?

 

[AgEngDawg]

If Biden did get his wet dream, do you think Americans would want any part in that War? Would they join or have to be drafted?

No one wants to fight in eastern Europe for a former soviet republic.

We also have to worry about that escalating to nukes dropping which it certainly could.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Also, from MacGregor:

"President Biden’s apparent guarantee of U.S. support to Ukraine’s president suggests he’s also drinking deeply from the poison well of failed American statecraft and generalship, a wellspring of uncreative minds with no appreciation for real warfare. Twenty years of desultory battles against weak opponents (insurgents without armies, air forces, and air defenses) has not elevated much warfighting talent to the senior ranks of the armed forces to cope with a radically changed warfighting environment."

He is correct. For all his good points, you would not pick David Patreus to command an army in a major great power conflict.

I do want to know if he banged that chick from Tampa though. She was hot.

 

[Jtrain80]

No one wants to fight in eastern Europe for a former soviet republic.

Our sorry ass politicians dont want to "start" a war. They need provocation first. They will even provoke themselves and blame it on their targets if need be.

 

[HunterPKP]

Also, from MacGregor:

"President Biden’s apparent guarantee of U.S. support to Ukraine’s president suggests he’s also drinking deeply from the poison well of failed American statecraft and generalship, a wellspring of uncreative minds with no appreciation for real warfare. Twenty years of desultory battles against weak opponents (insurgents without armies, air forces, and air defenses) has not elevated much warfighting talent to the senior ranks of the armed forces to cope with a radically changed warfighting environment."

He is correct. For all his good points, you would not pick David Patreus to command an army in a major great power conflict.

I do want to know if he banged that chick from Tampa though. She was hot.

My brother (retired Colonel) has said that Russia would definitely give us a good bloody nose and maybe a broken jaw to start, but that we'd ultimately end up winning. We would get our shit together real fast. Our pilots are still better trained. Our Navy still better trained. Our Special Forces, etc also showed Russia what they'd be up against when we annihilated a Russian trained militia in Syria a couple of years ago.

Russian Spetnaz are bad dudes, but no better than our Seals, Delta's, Air Force Spec and Marine Spec guys. Hell, there is a strong belief our Rangers and Green Berrets are more than enough for them. Polish Grom want in on anything we do that counters those guys and they are salty as fuck.

Still, they would hit us as hard as they could to start. Air Superiority is the name of the game against the Russians. Get it and they are done.

 

[AgEngDawg]

 

[casfoto]

Good article by Colonel Douglas MacGregor. I especially found the following enlightening:

"Fighting in Eastern Ukraine will produce heavy casualties on both sides. Russian and Ukrainian soldiers are courageous, intelligent, and ruthless. None of them are “woke.” All are motivated by patriotism, ingrained discipline, and a strong professional military ethos."

Facing the Facts of War with Russia

The Biden administration appears willing to get us into a fight we’re not ready for.

www.theamericanconservative.com

Absolutely true. it will not be good. The Russians have been fighting forever. They have no gender problems and have toughened up from years of conflict. I admire their intelligence, their music and their writers. During WW2 they lost the most (25 million people died). That whole thing is still fresh in their memory.

 

[casfoto]

China is still doing a huge business with the US. Even with all the rock throwing and huffing and puffing by our leaders. Look at the imports from
China. And Russia and China are an item. Russia protects the northern tier of China. They have been getting tighter and tighter as we keep pushing them. The east has really taken off since we started pumping money into it 50 years ago. But just recently the discussion changed when the top Chinese heads told Blinken to shove it. They basically said that he is not speaking from a position of strength..and this is true. He is an asshole anyway along with the rest of the failed neocons.

 

[America 1st]

China is still doing a huge business with the US. Even with all the rock throwing and huffing and puffing by our leaders. Look at the imports from
China. And Russia and China are an item. Russia protects the northern tier of China. They have been getting tighter and tighter as we keep pushing them. The east has really taken off since we started pumping money into it 50 years ago. But just recently the discussion changed when the top Chinese heads told Blinken to shove it. They basically said that he is not speaking from a position of strength..and this is true. He is an asshole anyway along with the rest of the failed neocons.

Why the US doesn't replace the commies with Mexico or India can only be explained as the cabal.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Biden tells Putin to back down over Ukraine

Joe Biden spoke with Vladimir Putin over the phone today and told the Russian president to 'de-escalate tensions' in Ukraine amid a massive buiild-up of forces along the border.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[HunterPKP]

 

[casfoto]

Biden tells Putin to back down over Ukraine

Joe Biden spoke with Vladimir Putin over the phone today and told the Russian president to 'de-escalate tensions' in Ukraine amid a massive buiild-up of forces along the border.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Get your bunkers ready.. Blinken, Nuland, Kagan, Wolfowitz. Kristol, Blum, Feith et all are determined to provocate and start making some REAL money. These have been the same characters that were here during Bush/Cheney..Obummer/Biden, Trump/Pence, and now Biden/Clinton.. oh Im sorry Kamel Toe. Kamel Toe was Clintons choice and if Killary was elected Nuland would be head of State Dept. Surely a very dangerous psychopathic group of people. Remeber that under Obummer (Noble Peace Prize) they destroyed Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, put 100,000 troops in Afganistan, Libya and defeated democracy in the Egyptian uprising which was a democratic uprising.There was a democratic election that elected a president but he was destroyed by our lovely democratic policy to protect Israels southern border. Billions have been paid to keep the southern border of Isreal in tact. (That is none of my business- if Isrealis want to have their border protected then do it and leave my tax money out of it. Hence the dictator Sisi took over and murdered his rival. Just like Mubarek had made billions off of our State Department to keep a lid on the Sinai Desert and to keep a lid on Israel's enemy the Muslim Brotherhood...none of my business either. My tax dollars again squandered for another country's issues.

 

[casfoto]

The Ukraine was Nulands doing...along with Killary Clinton under the watchful eye of the Nobel Peace Prize winner Obummer the Magnificant. . Lets sit and watch this horror story. There is considerable back up on this issue from many not spoken for states that sit and watch in horror. I have a feeling that this might not work well for our side.

 

[Jayhacker]

Biden tells Putin to back down over Ukraine

Joe Biden spoke with Vladimir Putin over the phone today and told the Russian president to 'de-escalate tensions' in Ukraine amid a massive buiild-up of forces along the border.

www.dailymail.co.uk

We'll be alright. The navy will at least have their masks on if shit hits the fan.