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[shiv]

Here's another one for you.

If and when HBAR does take off, do you plan to sell to make money or are you going to hold?

Do you plan to stake your HBAR?

I've been looking into what it takes to create a node which seems to be the better option to make consistent money/coins with it but it will take some work and a solid computer set up.

Hedera Technical Insights: Proxy Staking on Hedera | Hedera

Proxy staking in Hedera hashgraph will allow the stake of millions of account holders to be used towards consensus even if not directly participating as a node. Nodes will receive significant compensation for staking, to incentivize them to do all the effort of being a node. Proxy stakers will also…

hedera.com

Node Requirements | Hedera

The Hedera Mainnet is currently comprised of permissioned consensus nodes operated by the Hedera Governing Council

docs.hedera.com

Good info - this answers my previous post

 

[MortgageHorn]

 

[Old Glory]

Pretty much all cryptos are down over the past 24 hours so if you're looking to add more now might be a good time.

 

[ChicagoFats]

Pretty much all cryptos are down over the past 24 hours so if you're looking to add more now might be a good time.

Yep, hoping to get a major sell off in the coins so we can accumulate more. We are well off the highs from 3-6 months ago so that’s a start

 

[Old Glory]

Yep, hoping to get a major sell off in the coins so we can accumulate more. We are well off the highs from 3-6 months ago so that’s a start

The Crypto Bull God (name lol) who @MortgageHorn posted some twitter posts a while ago and I've since followed posted a while back that then the BTC 50 SMA moves below the 200 SMA historically we've seen a correction of around 2-3 months and then BTC come back from that. That moment happened about a month ago so it will be interesting to see how/if it recovers.

The two schools of thought I've heard from most people are either BTC will come back roaring and take the crypto market up with it, or BTC will keep falling but the alt-coins will reach all time highs because money is leaving BTC and flowing into them.

 

[ChicagoFats]

The Crypto Bull God (name lol) who @MortgageHorn posted some twitter posts a while ago and I've since followed posted a while back that then the BTC 50 SMA moves below the 200 SMA historically we've seen a correction of around 2-3 months and then BTC come back from that. That moment happened about a month ago so it will be interesting to see how/if it recovers.

The two schools of thought I've heard from most people are either BTC will come back roaring and take the crypto market up with it, or BTC will keep falling but the alt-coins will reach all time highs because money is leaving BTC and flowing into them.

Personally I don't see money leaving BTC to go to the smaller chains. BTC is the most developed market and there are still things that separate it from the other currencies. It is the safe haven of coins and I just can't see it losing that status anytime soon

I don't know what happens to the price of BTC. My gut tells me its going way higher. The more people that use it the higher it will go and there is still a huge untapped market of users out there. That and i would think developers would be making apps to make btc more user friendly.

The rest of the chains I think there will be a use for. The De-Fi movement is legit. There is huge demand for these systems in finance. But this technology is not limited to finance. There is the potential to disrupt many industries.

On the opposite side, there is huge incentive to hack these chains and just because a chain is useful doesn't necessarily mean it will be profitable. So who knows where the prices ultimately go, but there seems to be a lot of potential.

 

[Old Glory]

Personally I don't see money leaving BTC to go to the smaller chains. BTC is the most developed market and there are still things that separate it from the other currencies. It is the safe haven of coins and I just can't see it losing that status anytime soon

I don't know what happens to the price of BTC. My gut tells me its going way higher. The more people that use it the higher it will go and there is still a huge untapped market of users out there. That and i would think developers would be making apps to make btc more user friendly.

The rest of the chains I think there will be a use for. The De-Fi movement is legit. There is huge demand for these systems in finance. But this technology is not limited to finance. There is the potential to disrupt many industries.

On the opposite side, there is huge incentive to hack these chains and just because a chain is useful doesn't necessarily mean it will be profitable. So who knows where the prices ultimately go, but there seems to be a lot of potential.

I disagree a bit with BTC, I think it will always be around but unless they change their blockchain technology I think they will just be a "collectors" item at some point because of how intense their blockchain is. The amount of energy and resources needed to verify one transaction is astounding compared to things like ETH (not much lower but still better and they are working on ETH 2.0) and HBAR (among others). They absolutely were a pioneer but unless they can tap some other network (i.e. hedera), I think they will become more or less useless. BTC at this point is just a store of value whereas things like HBAR or MANA or ONE have actual purposes behind the token. I understand BTC has their own blockchain but again it takes a lot of resources to operate. I have not followed BTC other than the price so if they are working on something I am not aware of then forget what I just said. I've only been in crypto for a few months so I could be way off in my thinking.

I do agree that I think it will go much higher as well, what I posted above is my view in the long term.

I also agree that defi will be widespread, for better or for worse. Smart contracts are already starting to be used which will happen in so many industries.

The hacking incentive is huge but that's one of the appeals of blockchain is that it is supposedly not possible. Your info can be stolen from the exchange itself but the blockchain is supposed to prevent that from happening. Anything is possible and the first one to get hacked will be monumental but let's hope that never happens.

I don't like the idea of everything going virtual but if there's money to be made and it's happening either way, then I'm in because you would be silly not to be aware of this, have the opportunity, and let it go by.

 

[Jayhacker]

Got my engagement letter from my accountant yesterday. Minimum charge to do a tax return that deals with crypto is $2500. Fkn government just couldn't keep their hands out of it.

 

[ChicagoFats]

Got my engagement letter from my accountant yesterday. Minimum charge to do a tax return that deals with crypto is $2500. Fkn government just couldn't keep their hands out of it.

If you are on coinbase they will basically do it for you. But I could see how it would be a pain in the ass for an accountant and they wouldn't want to get bogged down in the details of it.

 

[ChicagoFats]

I disagree a bit with BTC, I think it will always be around but unless they change their blockchain technology I think they will just be a "collectors" item at some point because of how intense their blockchain is. The amount of energy and resources needed to verify one transaction is astounding compared to things like ETH (not much lower but still better and they are working on ETH 2.0) and HBAR (among others). They absolutely were a pioneer but unless they can tap some other network (i.e. hedera), I think they will become more or less useless. BTC at this point is just a store of value whereas things like HBAR or MANA or ONE have actual purposes behind the token. I understand BTC has their own blockchain but again it takes a lot of resources to operate. I have not followed BTC other than the price so if they are working on something I am not aware of then forget what I just said. I've only been in crypto for a few months so I could be way off in my thinking.

I do agree that I think it will go much higher as well, what I posted above is my view in the long term.

I also agree that defi will be widespread, for better or for worse. Smart contracts are already starting to be used which will happen in so many industries.

The hacking incentive is huge but that's one of the appeals of blockchain is that it is supposedly not possible. Your info can be stolen from the exchange itself but the blockchain is supposed to prevent that from happening. Anything is possible and the first one to get hacked will be monumental but let's hope that never happens.

I don't like the idea of everything going virtual but if there's money to be made and it's happening either way, then I'm in because you would be silly not to be aware of this, have the opportunity, and let it go by.

Discussing your first point in how you think BTC will become just a collectors item, i strongly disagree.

There is a triangle of things to think about. Security, Speed, and power consumption. In order to reduce power consumption you have to sacrifice security and transaction speed. There is no way around that triangle at the moment.

The longer the blockchain is, the more secure it is. So if you want to execute something with the gold standard of security you will have to use BTC. I don't think that level of security is going to be taken lightly when you are talking large sums of money. Sure in your small transactions no big deal, but dealing with banking sized transactions its very important.

There is room for all of these products whether they be POW or POS. There is room for BTC and ETH and many others but I don't think BTC loses its status as king any time soon.

 

[Old Glory]

Discussing your first point in how you think BTC will become just a collectors item, i strongly disagree.

There is a triangle of things to think about. Security, Speed, and power consumption. In order to reduce power consumption you have to sacrifice security and transaction speed. There is no way around that triangle at the moment.

The longer the blockchain is, the more secure it is. So if you want to execute something with the gold standard of security you will have to use BTC. I don't think that level of security is going to be taken lightly when you are talking large sums of money. Sure in your small transactions no big deal, but dealing with banking sized transactions its very important.

There is room for all of these products whether they be POW or POS. There is room for BTC and ETH and many others but I don't think BTC loses its status as king any time soon.

That's why I think the way I do about BTC. Right now, yeah it's the king and there's nothing else but new technologies that challenge them are coming out constantly. While they are secure, they are slow and have high energy consumption. If you can reduce speed or power but keep security, why wouldn't money flow to that one instead?

That's why HBAR is so promising is that it's supposedly more secure, faster, and uses much less power than BTC. If BTC doesn't adapt, then what keeps it relevant in the future (a long time in the future, not soon)?

You make a good point about the big dollar transactions going to the longer blockchain because of the security. Hypothetically there will be some point in the future where a blockchain on a new (not so new at that point) network is long enough that the security is sufficient but they use less energy/time that those dollars would then go to that blockchain instead of BTC.

 

[Jayhacker]

If you are on coinbase they will basically do it for you. But I could see how it would be a pain in the ass for an accountant and they wouldn't want to get bogged down in the details of it.

I think what you're paying for is the software he has to buy. His letter says every single transaction is a separate page on the return.

 

[ChicagoFats]

That's why I think the way I do about BTC. Right now, yeah it's the king and there's nothing else but new technologies that challenge them are coming out constantly. While they are secure, they are slow and have high energy consumption. If you can reduce speed or power but keep security, why wouldn't money flow to that one instead?

That's why HBAR is so promising is that it's supposedly more secure, faster, and uses much less power than BTC. If BTC doesn't adapt, then what keeps it relevant in the future (a long time in the future, not soon)?

You make a good point about the big dollar transactions going to the longer blockchain because of the security. Hypothetically there will be some point in the future where a blockchain on a new (not so new at that point) network is long enough that the security is sufficient but they use less energy/time that those dollars would then go to that blockchain instead of BTC.

You can't incrase speed, reduce power, and keep security is the point i was trying to make. Its not my theory, i'll find it in a book i was recently reading.

The main difference between all of the coins is the balance between Power, Security and Speed.
I'm just saying that i think there is a market for all of them, but BTC is (Literal Lee) the gold stadard of crypto-currency. That is not going to change easily.

Mastercard and Visa have a large ecological footprint as well. I don't think that will be what takes BTC down. More than likely people will find a way to regulate and store energy with BTC.

 

[shiv]

I could be retarded, but:

HBAR mainnet validation nodes are and will always be owned by the corporate world. Doesn't that somewhat go against the idea of decentralization? Decentralized in theory, but owned by the corporate world so they can jerk around John Q Public

Again, I'm trying to learn

 

[Old Glory]

I could be retarded, but:

HBAR mainnet validation nodes are and will always be owned by the corporate world. Doesn't that somewhat go against the idea of decentralization? Decentralized in theory, but owned by the corporate world so they can jerk around John Q Public

Again, I'm trying to learn

Consensus nodes receive transactions, work together to determine consensus using hashgraph, and store the public ledger's latest state. The Hedera Governing Council currently runs all mainnet consensus nodes. As Hedera advances on its path to decentralization, anyone will be able run a consensus node.

Hedera networks | Hedera

Access Hedera networks and understand their nodes.

hedera.com

 

[shiv]

Consensus nodes receive transactions, work together to determine consensus using hashgraph, and store the public ledger's latest state. The Hedera Governing Council currently runs all mainnet consensus nodes. As Hedera advances on its path to decentralization, anyone will be able run a consensus node.

Hedera networks | Hedera

Access Hedera networks and understand their nodes.

hedera.com

Will the consensus nodes have the same authority/yield as mainnet nodes? To me it seems like a reserve bank (mainnet) surrounded by smaller local banks (consensus nodes)

Seperate question: will the consensus nodes require the same horsepower as the mainnet nodes?

 

[Old Glory]

Will the consensus nodes have the same authority/yield as mainnet nodes? To me it seems like a reserve bank (mainnet) surrounded by smaller local banks (consensus nodes)

Seperate question: will the consensus nodes require the same horsepower as the mainnet nodes?

Mainnet Consensus Nodes | Hedera

docs.hedera.com

Hedera networks are comprised of two types of nodes: Consensus and Mirror nodes. The Hedera mainnet consensus nodes are currently permissioned; operated by the Hedera Governing Council. Consensus nodes receive transactions from clients, charge transaction fees, and contribute to consensus being achieved. Mirror nodes are permissionless, and store the history of transactions for optimized queries. Mirror nodes do not submit transactions to the network from clients nor do they participate in consensus.

Are you see something different? It appears that the mainnet and consensus are one in the same.

Node Requirements | Hedera

The Hedera Mainnet is currently comprised of permissioned consensus nodes operated by the Hedera Governing Council

docs.hedera.com

 

[shiv]

Mainnet Consensus Nodes | Hedera

docs.hedera.com

Hedera networks are comprised of two types of nodes: Consensus and Mirror nodes. The Hedera mainnet consensus nodes are currently permissioned; operated by the Hedera Governing Council. Consensus nodes receive transactions from clients, charge transaction fees, and contribute to consensus being achieved. Mirror nodes are permissionless, and store the history of transactions for optimized queries. Mirror nodes do not submit transactions to the network from clients nor do they participate in consensus.

Are you see something different? It appears that the mainnet and consensus are one in the same.

Node Requirements | Hedera

The Hedera Mainnet is currently comprised of permissioned consensus nodes operated by the Hedera Governing Council

docs.hedera.com

It says at the top that this info is only valid for governing council mainnet nodes

 

[Old Glory]

View attachment 70272

It says at the top that this info is only valid for governing council mainnet nodes

I would interpret that as it's for the council right now but not limited to them in the future per the "As Hedera advances on its path to decentralization, anyone will be able run a consensus node."

You're right that if they only had GC as the mainnet nodes then that takes away from being decentralized. Based on what I have read and understand, Hedera is being very methodical in their rollout (i.e. all HBARs won't be released from their treasury until 2025) that IMO they want to make sure they get the system running correctly first before letting just anyone use it.

 

[Old Glory]

View attachment 70272

It says at the top that this info is only valid for governing council mainnet nodes

Do you have an estimate on what a PC setup with those requirements would cost?

 

[shiv]

Do you have an estimate on what a PC setup with those requirements would cost?

No, not right now. One challenge I see is the requirement to be in a tier 1 data center.

 

[shiv]

I would interpret that as it's for the council right now but not limited to them in the future per the "As Hedera advances on its path to decentralization, anyone will be able run a consensus node."

You're right that if they only had GC as the mainnet nodes then that takes away from being decentralized. Based on what I have read and understand, Hedera is being very methodical in their rollout (i.e. all HBARs won't be released from their treasury until 2025) that IMO they want to make sure they get the system running correctly first before letting just anyone use it.

At least for right now, you can run a mirror node from AWS or Google cloud. It seems the requirement for the mirror nodes will be less.

Somewhat it seems the mirror nodes will basically spread the ledger across a public network. The more mirror nodes, the more security. But I would imagine they will have to provide some sort of benefit for running a mirror node

 

[ChicagoFats]

I could be retarded, but:

HBAR mainnet validation nodes are and will always be owned by the corporate world. Doesn't that somewhat go against the idea of decentralization? Decentralized in theory, but owned by the corporate world so they can jerk around John Q Public

Again, I'm trying to learn

Yes, they are aiming for the hybrid market if you will.

It reminds me of the year 2000 when i first started trading options at the CBOE. Everyone knew that floor trading or open outcry trading (where you stand in a circle and yell at each other like in the movie trading spaces) wasn't going to last long. Most people would say "I give it 5-10 years max." Here we are 22 years later and we still have floor trading. Most trades are electronic now, but the more complex trades are mostly done by humans in open outcry.

HBAR is aiming for the "Enterprise" market because they can process transactions much faster and in much higher bulk, so they claim. I imagine something like Wal-mart using it to track their supply chain. It would probably be much cheaper and accurate for inventory control than their current systems. I also think food safety. We take food safety for granted a lot of times here in the UNited States but it is a problem in other parts of the world.

So yes, I think Hedera is aiming for a hybrid centralized / decentralized model. Will be interesteing to see how it plays out over the years.

 

[ChicagoFats]

Do you have an estimate on what a PC setup with those requirements would cost?

7-10k when i was looking at minimum requirements for a mainnet mode (i think)

 

[Old Glory]

At least for right now, you can run a mirror node from AWS or Google cloud. It seems the requirement for the mirror nodes will be less.

Somewhat it seems the mirror nodes will basically spread the ledger across a public network. The more mirror nodes, the more security. But I would imagine they will have to provide some sort of benefit for running a mirror node

Hedera has said that Proxy stakers will receive a minimal amount of HBAR for proxy staking their coins, I could see providing a mirror node would receive some sort of similar reward in the future.

 

[shiv]

Yes, they are aiming for the hybrid market if you will.

It reminds me of the year 2000 when i first started trading options at the CBOE. Everyone knew that floor trading or open outcry trading (where you stand in a circle and yell at each other like in the movie trading spaces) wasn't going to last long. Most people would say "I give it 5-10 years max." Here we are 22 years later and we still have floor trading.

HBAR is aiming for the "Enterprise" market because they can process transactions much faster and in much higher bulk, so they claim. I imagine something like Wal-mart using it to track their supply chain. It would probably be much cheaper and accurate for inventory control than their current systems. I also think food safety. We take food safety for granted a lot of times here in the UNited States but it is a problem in other parts of the world.

So yes, I think Hedera is aiming for a hybrid centralized / decentralized model. Will be interesteing to see how it plays out over the years.

Yeah I'm seeing there are multiple variations of Proof of Stake. HBAR would be considered delegated Proof of Stake.

I found this page on the Algorand site that seems useful:

Pure Proof-of-Stake

A brief overview of Algorand's pure proof of stake approach compared to other consensus mechanisms like Proof of Work and Delegated Proof of Stake

www.algorand.com

From the article: what DPoS offers in scalability, it sacrifices in decentralization, and therefore, security. DPoS is inherently centralized.

 

[shiv]

Hedera has said that Proxy stakers will receive a minimal amount of HBAR for proxy staking their coins, I could see providing a mirror node would receive some sort of similar reward in the future.

It seems to be 3 functions: proxy stakers, mirror nodes and mainnet nodes.

Quote
"Proxy staking allows those who own hbars, but aren’t operating a node, to stake their hbars to someone else’s node. Earnings are split between the node operator and owners of the proxy staked hbars, earning the proxy staker a small share of transaction fees."

Where mirror nodes provide a copy of the ledger from the mainnet.

 

[ChicagoFats]

Yeah I'm seeing there are multiple variations of Proof of Stake. HBAR would be considered delegated Proof of Stake.

I found this page on the Algorand site that seems useful:

Pure Proof-of-Stake

A brief overview of Algorand's pure proof of stake approach compared to other consensus mechanisms like Proof of Work and Delegated Proof of Stake

www.algorand.com

From the article: what DPoS offers in scalability, it sacrifices in decentralization, and therefore, security. DPoS is inherently centralized.

Many people will argue that BTC is the only truly decentralized ledger. ETH was "hacked" early on in its existence and they did a fork in order to fix the situation. Many feel that ETH is not truly decentralized.

Another reason why i think BTC stays the gold standard depsite its energy deficiencies. It is the king of decentralization as it stands.

 

[shiv]

Okay so it days say that in Phase 3, any user can be a full node:

From this article:

Earn Hbars with Hashgraph Proxy Staking

hbarprice.com

Quote:
In the process of proxy staking, a user of hbars could assign their hbars to a fully functional node (until phase 2 & 3, when any user can be a full node) to earn hbars.

 

[shiv]

When are phase 2 and 3 scheduled to be rolled out? What phase are we on with HBAR?

 

[ChicagoFats]

 

[ChicagoFats]

 

[LVRebel]

View attachment 70280

What are you taking these clips from?

 

[ChicagoFats]

What are you taking these clips from?

The HBAR website. I'll try to post links in the future

 

[LVRebel]

The HBAR website. I'll try to post links in the future

No worries, I can check it out on the site also. Thanks brother!

 

[Old Glory]

When are phase 2 and 3 scheduled to be rolled out? What phase are we on with HBAR?

I don't think they explicitly say but here is their roadmap:

Hedera's Roadmap | Hedera

Hedera has an audacious but simple vision: to build a trusted, secure, and empowered digital future for all.

hedera.com

Q2 2022

Network​

PERMISSIONED COMMUNITY NODES​

Continue on Hedera’s path to decentralization through the introduction of a set of community-run mainnet nodes.

 

[MortgageHorn]

 

[MortgageHorn]

There is a triangle of things to think about. Security, Speed, and power consumption. In order to reduce power consumption you have to sacrifice security and transaction speed. There is no way around that triangle at the moment.

Do You Know What Thread You Are In?

The Whole Purpose of Hashgraph DLT is That You CAN Have ALL 3

 

[MortgageHorn]

 

[ChicagoFats]

Do You Know What Thread You Are In?

The Whole Purpose of Hashgraph DLT is That You CAN Have ALL 3

You heard me. Yes, Hedera sacrifices security in order to have speed and use less power and they think that will be a better product. I agree that it may be better at many things, but BTC is more secure. And thats the point I was trying to make. Once you break Satoshi protocol you are sacrificing security because Satoshi protocol is the gold standard of security right now.