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One mountain. Many paths.
Biblical Prophecy Thread
- Thread starter catfishpunter
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He stands alone. He walked alone. More than any other being Christ changed the course of the world for the better. I honor him, respect him, praise him and love him. @Hoosier in Mad Town
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This post is sort of the beginning of an overview of the Tribulation, also called Daniel's 70th Week, The Day of the Lord, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and many other names.
The subject is massive, so I'll be as brief as possible.
What starts it all? I believe one thing that must occur before the Tribulation begins is the rapture. I appreciate many Christians do not believe in a rapture, but that's an argument for another time. About it, I will only say that if you don't believe it, you'd better hope you're wrong, because the Tribulation will be literal hell unleashed on earth. I also believe that God has a calendar, and being the merciful God that he is, will wait until the last moment before the Tribulation to close the door on pre-tribulational salvation.
What happens then? I believe that the rapture will take place just before, during, or just after the war described in Ezekiel 38. Why? Ezekiel 37 describes Israel being reborn as a sovereign nation after a long hiatus. Israel's rebirth was a momentus miracle in itself, a people dispersed, yet retaining their heritage, culture, and language for over 1800 years before returning to their homeland. Ezekiel 38 describes an incredible war, where many Arab nations unite with Turkey & Iran to march against Israel, led by a nation to the north, believed by many to be Russia. I don't have time to go into it here, but I think the more important aspect of these armies is who is leading them, a being named Gog, the chief prince of Meshech & Tubal. I think this is a prince in the same sense that the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece were princes that the angel who visited Daniel was warring against. One of Satan's generals, but not satan himself. For many reasons I won't mention here, I think it's clear this is not the final post-millenial war of the same name, and not armageddon's war.
Why does this war kick off the Tribulation, or at least signal the end of one dispensation or the beginning of the next? What is special about this war? Because for nearly 2000 years, God has dealt with the Church. That's why the period we're in now has been referred to as the Church Age. He has not been dealing with Israel's national salvation since they rejected Christ upon his Triumphal entry. But this war changes everything. Israel, currently about as wicked a nation as there is on planet earth, will turn to God. They'll attempt to reinstitute Old Testament worship, but they do not at this point accept the only thing now acceptable to God, Christ Jesus. No nation will come to their aid (and that includes the U.S.), and the Bible is explicit that God wins this war in a supernatural fashion, not through the IDF, and everyone on earth will know it. It appears this signals a change, that God is now dealing with Israel, and during/before/after this brief war, he will remove his church, as that era will be ended.
So in summary, I think that the war of Ezekiel 38 will signal a change in dispensation, from the Church to Israel, as it will be the catalyst to pagan Israel returning to its old covenant roots in their attempt to find God. And as they aren't yet ready to call on Christ, God will put them through terrible tribulation as he judges this lost world, until they have nowhere else to turn.
In closing, I would say that this war could happen quickly. It might not be for years or decades, but on the other hand, the principal players, Iran, Turkey, and theoretically Russia, have troops in Syria right now, and Iran has proxy soldiers all over Syria and Lebanon. If you are not prepared for these events, foretold 2500 years ago by Ezekiel, I'd advise (or beg) you to reconsider Jesus and who he really is.
The subject is massive, so I'll be as brief as possible.
What starts it all? I believe one thing that must occur before the Tribulation begins is the rapture. I appreciate many Christians do not believe in a rapture, but that's an argument for another time. About it, I will only say that if you don't believe it, you'd better hope you're wrong, because the Tribulation will be literal hell unleashed on earth. I also believe that God has a calendar, and being the merciful God that he is, will wait until the last moment before the Tribulation to close the door on pre-tribulational salvation.
What happens then? I believe that the rapture will take place just before, during, or just after the war described in Ezekiel 38. Why? Ezekiel 37 describes Israel being reborn as a sovereign nation after a long hiatus. Israel's rebirth was a momentus miracle in itself, a people dispersed, yet retaining their heritage, culture, and language for over 1800 years before returning to their homeland. Ezekiel 38 describes an incredible war, where many Arab nations unite with Turkey & Iran to march against Israel, led by a nation to the north, believed by many to be Russia. I don't have time to go into it here, but I think the more important aspect of these armies is who is leading them, a being named Gog, the chief prince of Meshech & Tubal. I think this is a prince in the same sense that the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece were princes that the angel who visited Daniel was warring against. One of Satan's generals, but not satan himself. For many reasons I won't mention here, I think it's clear this is not the final post-millenial war of the same name, and not armageddon's war.
Why does this war kick off the Tribulation, or at least signal the end of one dispensation or the beginning of the next? What is special about this war? Because for nearly 2000 years, God has dealt with the Church. That's why the period we're in now has been referred to as the Church Age. He has not been dealing with Israel's national salvation since they rejected Christ upon his Triumphal entry. But this war changes everything. Israel, currently about as wicked a nation as there is on planet earth, will turn to God. They'll attempt to reinstitute Old Testament worship, but they do not at this point accept the only thing now acceptable to God, Christ Jesus. No nation will come to their aid (and that includes the U.S.), and the Bible is explicit that God wins this war in a supernatural fashion, not through the IDF, and everyone on earth will know it. It appears this signals a change, that God is now dealing with Israel, and during/before/after this brief war, he will remove his church, as that era will be ended.
So in summary, I think that the war of Ezekiel 38 will signal a change in dispensation, from the Church to Israel, as it will be the catalyst to pagan Israel returning to its old covenant roots in their attempt to find God. And as they aren't yet ready to call on Christ, God will put them through terrible tribulation as he judges this lost world, until they have nowhere else to turn.
In closing, I would say that this war could happen quickly. It might not be for years or decades, but on the other hand, the principal players, Iran, Turkey, and theoretically Russia, have troops in Syria right now, and Iran has proxy soldiers all over Syria and Lebanon. If you are not prepared for these events, foretold 2500 years ago by Ezekiel, I'd advise (or beg) you to reconsider Jesus and who he really is.
Holly Bomber
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So fasinating! Thank you all who contribute.
There will be one Anti-Christ, there are many anti-christs.
I would assume so, Satan knows scripture far better than any of us, and Satan will indwell him. Then again, one of his names is Son of Perdition, also used for Judas whom satan also entered into, and I don't think Judas realized who he was until the very end.
But whether he knows he's specifically the Anti-Christ or not, he knows he's anti-christ. He will make a decision to accept/reject Christ (and will choose poorly), same as all of us must do. He doesn't wind up in the Lake of Fire with his buddy the false prophet by accident or through no fault of his own: his decisions will lead him there.
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We got the wonderful in-laws off to the airport after two weeks of company here in our house. That 7 year old and 9 year old have a source of power and unstoppable energy that I need to find for myself, or find out how to shut down in them. Whew....
Now back to a regular posting routine.
I talked a little bit about Babylon before, and how it was the epicenter of all false religion.
The Bible has many themes that flow throughout it. One of those themes is a "tale of two cities" - Jerusalem and Babylon. These two relatively close neighbors represent completely opposite views of the world.
Jerusalem
- There is one God, who is immutable and can be trusted
- Man is justified before God by faith
- Man has access to God because God shows mercy and reaches down to man (think of the Temple, where God's presence dwelt; think of Jesus, who was sacrificed for man at Jerusalem; think of the Holy Spirit, who first came to dwell with and empower the Church in Jerusalem)
- Man is made in God's image, and our lifestyle should reflect that holy design
Babylon
- There are many gods, and they are fickle
- Man is justified by cultic ritual and good deeds
- Man has access to gods by his own pride and "ascending" to Heaven (think the Tower of Babel, where man arrogantly built bab-el, the "gate of god")
- Man may live with pleasure as his highest priority, and may even choose to blend sex and worship
These cities rise and fall (and rise again, and fall again) throughout human history. The Bible and secular history both describe this pattern. The Bible predicts that both Jerusalem and Babylon will be the focal points of future world history under the Antichrist's One World government.
Revelation contains ample prophecy concerning Babylon in the last days, as it does Jerusalem. For centuries, many Christians (maybe the majority, even) felt obliged to view those prophecies as symbolic, since both cities were in complete ruins.
With the formation of the modern Jewish state in 1948, however, and the rapid rebuilding of Jerusalem as a predominantly Jewish city, maybe a literal reading of Revelation's prophecy regarding Jersualem makes sense...
...and if that's true, maybe a literal reading of Revelation's prophecy regarding Babylon makes sense as well. If that's the case, at some point, Babylon will be rebuilt and will exert tremendous political, spiritual, economic, and military power around the world.
Of course, though, nobody would ever try and rebuild Babylon, right? I mean, it's stuck out in the middle of nowhere in the Iraqi desert.
A madman had a vision, however....
That's a mural of the old mustachioed dictator himself, Saddam, framed opposite Babylon's greatest historical ruler, Nebuchadnezzar II. Saddam fancied himself the heir of Nebuchadnezzar's throne, and the modern day imperial savior of Iraq. In the clumsiest ways possible, Saddam sought to rebuild Babylon.
He did a terrible job, destroying archaeological remains as he did so. Here's an old, but good, five minute video that gives a basic overview of Saddam's Babylon.
Saddam had such a fixation on being the new Nebuchadnezzar II that he had bricks stamped and placed in the walls of the partially rebuilt city:
“In the reign of the victorious Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic, may God keep him the guardian of the great Iraq and the renovator of its renaissance and the builder of its great civilization, the rebuilding of the great city of Babylon was done in 1987.” [source here]
Let's just say that even Noel Gallagher and the ghost of John Lennon would think that Saddam took his hero worship a little too far.
Of course, as we know, Saddam's plans to rebuild Babylon died when he did, and in a similar fashion. What once stood for royalty and prestige was left a sad shadow of its former self.
His efforts did accomplish something entirely unexpected, though.
Saddam's egregious attempts to build a crappy version of new Babylon atop old Babylon drew the world's eye towards the archaeological site. The ancient site needed protection, and while some of it had been destroyed, there was still a chance to save the roughly 85% of the location that remained unexcavated.
You and I live in very interesting times.
In one of the final acts of the pre-COVID world, the United Nations declared Babylon a World Heritage Site in the summer of 2019. For the first time in 2,500 years, the entire world acknowledged Babylon as a place of importance.
What happens next? Where do we go from here? Who knows... the Bible's prophecies about end-times Babylon may be entirely symbolic, with the term being used as an easily-understood allegory to represent the dominant One World religion to come. There are other thoughts that, based on writings of Peter (1 Peter 5:13) and the description of Babylon given in Revelation 17, the end-times Babylon could refer instead to Rome.
[Side note: at some point, we will have a very uncomfortable discussion about some of the major historical and current issues with the Vatican, and why people tie the imagery of Rome/Babylon and the Vatican together, though this is not the time for that overview]
Whether Babylon is to be rebuilt under the guidance of a United Nations-like political body and serve as a headquarters for man's government, whether its pagan ideas and principles instead rise in a dispersed way independent of the physical city, or whether Rome itself serves as the new Babylon, we can be assured that one day, the evil of Babylon will again dominate the world, albeit for a short time.
The Lion of Babylon will stand in defiant opposition to the Lion of Judah (Jesus) as he always has, seeking to subjugate all mankind and crush them beneath his feet. Jesus came to save; the Antichrist and Satan come to seduce and enslave. Thank you, God, that the Lion of Judah has already and will again overcome this evil at the appointed time.
Now back to a regular posting routine.
I talked a little bit about Babylon before, and how it was the epicenter of all false religion.
The Bible has many themes that flow throughout it. One of those themes is a "tale of two cities" - Jerusalem and Babylon. These two relatively close neighbors represent completely opposite views of the world.
Jerusalem
- There is one God, who is immutable and can be trusted
- Man is justified before God by faith
- Man has access to God because God shows mercy and reaches down to man (think of the Temple, where God's presence dwelt; think of Jesus, who was sacrificed for man at Jerusalem; think of the Holy Spirit, who first came to dwell with and empower the Church in Jerusalem)
- Man is made in God's image, and our lifestyle should reflect that holy design
Babylon
- There are many gods, and they are fickle
- Man is justified by cultic ritual and good deeds
- Man has access to gods by his own pride and "ascending" to Heaven (think the Tower of Babel, where man arrogantly built bab-el, the "gate of god")
- Man may live with pleasure as his highest priority, and may even choose to blend sex and worship
These cities rise and fall (and rise again, and fall again) throughout human history. The Bible and secular history both describe this pattern. The Bible predicts that both Jerusalem and Babylon will be the focal points of future world history under the Antichrist's One World government.
Revelation contains ample prophecy concerning Babylon in the last days, as it does Jerusalem. For centuries, many Christians (maybe the majority, even) felt obliged to view those prophecies as symbolic, since both cities were in complete ruins.
With the formation of the modern Jewish state in 1948, however, and the rapid rebuilding of Jerusalem as a predominantly Jewish city, maybe a literal reading of Revelation's prophecy regarding Jersualem makes sense...
...and if that's true, maybe a literal reading of Revelation's prophecy regarding Babylon makes sense as well. If that's the case, at some point, Babylon will be rebuilt and will exert tremendous political, spiritual, economic, and military power around the world.
Of course, though, nobody would ever try and rebuild Babylon, right? I mean, it's stuck out in the middle of nowhere in the Iraqi desert.
A madman had a vision, however....
That's a mural of the old mustachioed dictator himself, Saddam, framed opposite Babylon's greatest historical ruler, Nebuchadnezzar II. Saddam fancied himself the heir of Nebuchadnezzar's throne, and the modern day imperial savior of Iraq. In the clumsiest ways possible, Saddam sought to rebuild Babylon.
He did a terrible job, destroying archaeological remains as he did so. Here's an old, but good, five minute video that gives a basic overview of Saddam's Babylon.
Saddam had such a fixation on being the new Nebuchadnezzar II that he had bricks stamped and placed in the walls of the partially rebuilt city:
“In the reign of the victorious Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic, may God keep him the guardian of the great Iraq and the renovator of its renaissance and the builder of its great civilization, the rebuilding of the great city of Babylon was done in 1987.” [source here]
Let's just say that even Noel Gallagher and the ghost of John Lennon would think that Saddam took his hero worship a little too far.
Of course, as we know, Saddam's plans to rebuild Babylon died when he did, and in a similar fashion. What once stood for royalty and prestige was left a sad shadow of its former self.
His efforts did accomplish something entirely unexpected, though.
Saddam's egregious attempts to build a crappy version of new Babylon atop old Babylon drew the world's eye towards the archaeological site. The ancient site needed protection, and while some of it had been destroyed, there was still a chance to save the roughly 85% of the location that remained unexcavated.
You and I live in very interesting times.
In one of the final acts of the pre-COVID world, the United Nations declared Babylon a World Heritage Site in the summer of 2019. For the first time in 2,500 years, the entire world acknowledged Babylon as a place of importance.
What happens next? Where do we go from here? Who knows... the Bible's prophecies about end-times Babylon may be entirely symbolic, with the term being used as an easily-understood allegory to represent the dominant One World religion to come. There are other thoughts that, based on writings of Peter (1 Peter 5:13) and the description of Babylon given in Revelation 17, the end-times Babylon could refer instead to Rome.
[Side note: at some point, we will have a very uncomfortable discussion about some of the major historical and current issues with the Vatican, and why people tie the imagery of Rome/Babylon and the Vatican together, though this is not the time for that overview]
Whether Babylon is to be rebuilt under the guidance of a United Nations-like political body and serve as a headquarters for man's government, whether its pagan ideas and principles instead rise in a dispersed way independent of the physical city, or whether Rome itself serves as the new Babylon, we can be assured that one day, the evil of Babylon will again dominate the world, albeit for a short time.
The Lion of Babylon will stand in defiant opposition to the Lion of Judah (Jesus) as he always has, seeking to subjugate all mankind and crush them beneath his feet. Jesus came to save; the Antichrist and Satan come to seduce and enslave. Thank you, God, that the Lion of Judah has already and will again overcome this evil at the appointed time.
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Excellent post, @catfishpunter.
Concur with pretty much everything you wrote. The bible never explains that Babylon as described in Revelation is in any way symbolic, so our inclination must be to assume that it's literal Babylon as the world has known it from history, while leaving open the remote consideration that it could be just a symbol of the evil that will manifest in Rome, NYC, Brussels, etc. We should only read the Bible as symbolic when the bible gives us license to do so.
Concur with pretty much everything you wrote. The bible never explains that Babylon as described in Revelation is in any way symbolic, so our inclination must be to assume that it's literal Babylon as the world has known it from history, while leaving open the remote consideration that it could be just a symbol of the evil that will manifest in Rome, NYC, Brussels, etc. We should only read the Bible as symbolic when the bible gives us license to do so.
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Yep, I think that there is going to be a physical reconstruction of Babylon, as bizarre and unlikely as it seems. There are a couple of places where Babylon is described in a symbolic way, such as when Peter mentions in his first epistle that he is writing from "Babylon." He almost certainly wasn't camped out in the ruins of Babylon, but was most likely in Rome. Peter was referring to the Babylon-esque role Rome had taken on in the corruption and domination of the world during his time.
The other symbolic representation of Babylon is in the famous imagery of Revelation 17, where the woman, who represents the Babylon religion, rides the Beast (incidentally, I just realized that I accidentally referred to that chapter as Revelation 20 in my last post - changing that now).
One verse in there seems to identify the Beast with Rome, and additional information throughout Scripture hints at the fact that the Antichrist's one world government will look an awful lot like a reconstituted Roman Empire.
"Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits..." [Rev 17:9]
It is very interesting that Revelation seems to say that the Babylon pagan religion of the last days will be associated with Rome. Like I said before, we're going to take some hard looks at a group of folks who are headquartered in Rome.
Ultimately, even with the symbolic representation of Babylon in its one world religion and its one world economic system, I do think there is enough literal prophecy in the book that seems to clearly point to the reconstruction of the physical city of Babylon, which will finally serve as the headquarters for a one world government, just as Nimrod intended thousands of years ago when he first founded the city as Bab-el.
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Hey, I was going back over this thread and realized that I missed this post. There are a couple good questions in here.
Your second question is a really good one - essentially, "How do I go about studying the Bible?"
If you haven't read much, I'd recommend making sure you really know who Jesus is. Each of the four Gospels tells the same story with a different audience in mind, so what you'll get out of each of them is different. I would say to start with one of those.
If you want to understand the "life and times" of Jesus and the apostles, I would recommend that you read two books back to back - the Gospel of Luke, followed by the book of Acts. Those are basically Volumes I and II, written by Luke. You'll get to follow through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus in Luke, and then get into Acts and learn about how the Church started once He ascended into Heaven.
There are plenty of paths to go down, all of them good, and I'm glad to provide any feedback possible. Feel free to DM or post here with any questions you might have.
After reading Luke and Acts, I'd start to read a couple of the letters Paul wrote to the churches he ministered to in Acts, and then sit down with an enormous cup of coffee and a good friend to tackle Romans and Hebrews, which are challenging but SO good.
Don't skimp on the Old Testament, either. Remember, the story of Jesus is a Jewish story. He is all over the Old Testament, which pointed again and again toward the Messiah who was to come. Just as a preview of that, read one chapter from Isaiah, the 53rd chapter, which shows about as clearly as possible that the Messiah was to come and suffer on our behalf.
I've been a Christian for over 35 years, and I now spend just as much time reading the Old Testament as I do the New Testament, and I find it just as life-changing and fulfilling.
I believe you're spot on.
Daniel appears to indicate that the final worldly empire will be the Roman one. The ancient Roman Empire was never really destroyed as a whole the way Daniel writes, it split up and faded away over hundreds of years. I believe that's because its ultimate destruction is still to come.
Rome has already adopted its own form of ecumenicism, to include essentially all religions. They've proclaimed that we shouldn't try to convert Jews, they've allowed muslims to hold services in the Vatican, and the pope has embraced globalism and just about every sin imaginable. And it's not just catholicism that is on that track, though I believe they will lead the charge in the end times. Some American churches have adopted the same philosophy, including the vile Rick Warren, Kenneth Copeland, etc.
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This is well known, but for those that haven't connected these dots.
Seven hills of Rome - Wikipedia
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Inflation.
That, too, is in the book of Revelation. It is also a feature of our current world economy. While we've been dealing with it for the past year or so, a post on Rivals this morning highlights just how bad things are getting... and we're only getting started.
Many things can drive inflation, but in very simple terms, inflation shows up when an economy looks something like this:
(supply of money) + (demand for goods) > (supply of goods)
We are currently maximizing for money in pockets via stimulus, which also is driving demand for goods. COVID shutdowns, the Texas deep freeze, and the Suez Canal blockage are all constricting the supply of goods.
Hence, inflation.
The inflation that we're seeing right now is cute in comparison to what is coming. And, to steal a line from our favorite internet mystery man, "Nobody can stop what is coming."
The sixth chapter of Revelation present what might be, next to the Antichrist, the most popular characters of the book. They are commonly and collectively known as The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They are released by God in the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation period, and they execute specific judgments upon the Earth.
We'll get into them more in-depth, but for now, we should focus on one of them in particular.
"When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, 'Come!' I looked, and behold, a black horse, and the one who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, 'A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.' " [Rev 6:5-6]
This Horseman, the third, is often referred to as "Famine." That makes sense when you read about the impact he has on wheat and barley. When you look at it more closely, however, you see that "Famine" maybe isn't exactly the best term for what's going on here.
A denarius was an amount of pay that was roughly equal to a day's wages. In the scenario predicted above, at a certain point in future history, a day's wages will be required just to buy a quart of wheat or three quarts of barley.
According to this, we're headed back to global subsistence.
People will need to spend all of their day's energies just to get enough money to buy food to feed themselves and their children for that day.
Wheat is a staple food of the middle classes, while barley represents the food of the lower classes.
Note that "the oil and the wine" are not touched.
The initial hyper-inflation and subsequent impoverishment and starvation that will be seen during the Tribulation impacts the masses, while the rich continue to eat like kings... for a time.
Here's an interesting comparison to current times - look at this chart of US average hourly wages. Note the odd spike in early 2020. Wages jumped over $1 an hour and then declined. That spike represents the mass layoffs that impacted lower-income workers to a greater degree than higher-wage earners. Thus, the average wage earned jumped, with millions of low-income earners temporarily out of the picture. That recovered somewhat with rehiring as the economy reopened, but then inflation took over, which is driving the rapid increase ever since.
Economic catastrophes don't hit people uniformly, and it appears that the initial judgment of hyperinflation will not touch the rich, at least not in the same way as it impacts the poor.
If you're here on the Earth during those days, it won't be enjoyable, no matter who you are.
That, too, is in the book of Revelation. It is also a feature of our current world economy. While we've been dealing with it for the past year or so, a post on Rivals this morning highlights just how bad things are getting... and we're only getting started.
Many things can drive inflation, but in very simple terms, inflation shows up when an economy looks something like this:
(supply of money) + (demand for goods) > (supply of goods)
We are currently maximizing for money in pockets via stimulus, which also is driving demand for goods. COVID shutdowns, the Texas deep freeze, and the Suez Canal blockage are all constricting the supply of goods.
Hence, inflation.
The inflation that we're seeing right now is cute in comparison to what is coming. And, to steal a line from our favorite internet mystery man, "Nobody can stop what is coming."
The sixth chapter of Revelation present what might be, next to the Antichrist, the most popular characters of the book. They are commonly and collectively known as The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They are released by God in the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation period, and they execute specific judgments upon the Earth.
We'll get into them more in-depth, but for now, we should focus on one of them in particular.
"When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, 'Come!' I looked, and behold, a black horse, and the one who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, 'A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.' " [Rev 6:5-6]
This Horseman, the third, is often referred to as "Famine." That makes sense when you read about the impact he has on wheat and barley. When you look at it more closely, however, you see that "Famine" maybe isn't exactly the best term for what's going on here.
A denarius was an amount of pay that was roughly equal to a day's wages. In the scenario predicted above, at a certain point in future history, a day's wages will be required just to buy a quart of wheat or three quarts of barley.
According to this, we're headed back to global subsistence.
People will need to spend all of their day's energies just to get enough money to buy food to feed themselves and their children for that day.
Wheat is a staple food of the middle classes, while barley represents the food of the lower classes.
Note that "the oil and the wine" are not touched.
The initial hyper-inflation and subsequent impoverishment and starvation that will be seen during the Tribulation impacts the masses, while the rich continue to eat like kings... for a time.
Here's an interesting comparison to current times - look at this chart of US average hourly wages. Note the odd spike in early 2020. Wages jumped over $1 an hour and then declined. That spike represents the mass layoffs that impacted lower-income workers to a greater degree than higher-wage earners. Thus, the average wage earned jumped, with millions of low-income earners temporarily out of the picture. That recovered somewhat with rehiring as the economy reopened, but then inflation took over, which is driving the rapid increase ever since.
Economic catastrophes don't hit people uniformly, and it appears that the initial judgment of hyperinflation will not touch the rich, at least not in the same way as it impacts the poor.
If you're here on the Earth during those days, it won't be enjoyable, no matter who you are.
@catfishpunter post led me to thinking about the first judgements of the end times. The Four Horsemen. Not the Notre Dame football players, not the legendary wrestling stable, but the real deal. We think of the judgements of revelation as one event followed by another event, similar to the plagues of Egypt. Except with the seals, they're not one time events. They're not just events, they're a condition that will run for the entire 7 years.
People won't have a scarcity of food for a few weeks. Food won't be super-expensive for just a few months. The people of earth will struggle for food in the manner mentioned in the previous post, for 7 long years (if they don't die first). Take into consideration that the 6th seal is likely a pole shift, much of what is now the world's best farmland may almost instantly be unusable. The 1st trumpet brings a firestorm of some sort that destroys 1/3 of trees and grass, and one would assume, many crops with it. A couple of asteroids (or whatever these events are) destroy 1/3rd of the life in the sea, and ruin 1/3rd of freshwater. 1/3rd of sunlight is then blocked. Think of the impact on food production these events will have, to say nothing of what previous events had already done to hamper food supply. People will cut each other's throats over a single meal. It will be hell on earth. And at that point, it won't even be half over.
People won't have a scarcity of food for a few weeks. Food won't be super-expensive for just a few months. The people of earth will struggle for food in the manner mentioned in the previous post, for 7 long years (if they don't die first). Take into consideration that the 6th seal is likely a pole shift, much of what is now the world's best farmland may almost instantly be unusable. The 1st trumpet brings a firestorm of some sort that destroys 1/3 of trees and grass, and one would assume, many crops with it. A couple of asteroids (or whatever these events are) destroy 1/3rd of the life in the sea, and ruin 1/3rd of freshwater. 1/3rd of sunlight is then blocked. Think of the impact on food production these events will have, to say nothing of what previous events had already done to hamper food supply. People will cut each other's throats over a single meal. It will be hell on earth. And at that point, it won't even be half over.
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Revelation chapter 4 - John goes to Heaven.
When we left off the walk through Revelation, John had finished transcribing the letters to the 7 churches, letting them know specific messages of praise and correction from Jesus Himself. When those letters end, the entire perspective of the book changes.
Remember, there's that Greek term, "meta tauta,"μετὰ ταῦτα, that means "After these" or "After these things."
Everything that comes from here on out takes place after the end of the Church Age. We went through that earlier when we discussed the Rapture. Some believe that the Church will be present on the Earth throughout the Tribulation, while others (myself included) believe Scripture points to believers being taken up to Heaven prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.
Chapter 4 begins like this:
"μετὰ ταῦτα I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place μετὰ ταῦτα.'" [Rev 4:1]
John is then immediately placed in Heaven, where he will remain for the duration of the revelation he describes in this book.
Upon arriving in Heaven, John sees God on the throne, some wild angelic beings that surround the throne and worship God, and 24 elders who wear white garments and victor's crowns. The elders join the angelic beings in worship.
I don't personally have much to add in commentary here that can't be better said by others, so I'm going to include two resources here.
The first is a short excerpt from a message given by John MacArthur, Bible scholar and pastor. He describes the 24 elders and explains exactly who they might be and what they might represent. While we cannot know for certain who these men are, Dr. MacArthur makes a compelling case that is consistent with imagery used elsewhere throughout Scripture.
(TL/DW - He believes they represent the Church, which will be present in Heaven after the Rapture)
The second resource I want to share is a bit from an online commentary. This captures a critical concept that describes the different approaches taken toward God and authority in our society today.
Who do you believe sits on the throne described below in Revelation 4:2?
"Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and someone was sitting on the throne." [Rev 4:2]
From the Enduring Word Bible Commentary:
"And behold, a throne: This throne was what first impressed John, and it is the centerpiece of this vision. John was fixated on the occupied throne, and everything else is described in relation to this throne.
The bottom line of atheism or materialism is that there is no throne, there is no seat of authority or power that the entire universe must answer to. The bottom line of humanism is that there is a throne, but man sits upon it.
Essentially, man cannot live without the concept of a throne, a supreme ruler. So if man de-thrones God, he will inescapably place himself or some other man upon the throne, perhaps a political leader, as was the case with the dictators Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.
And One sat on the throne: The throne is not empty. There is some One who sits on this great heavenly throne. The throne is a powerful declaration of not merely God’s presence, but of His sovereign, rightful reign, and His prerogative to judge.
We can’t think rightly about much of anything until we settle in our mind that there is an occupied throne in heaven, and the God of the Bible rules from the throne."
If you would like to read more from that online commentary, you can find it here.
Who do you think is on the throne? Get that sorted out, and so much will start to follow downstream from your answer.
When we left off the walk through Revelation, John had finished transcribing the letters to the 7 churches, letting them know specific messages of praise and correction from Jesus Himself. When those letters end, the entire perspective of the book changes.
Remember, there's that Greek term, "meta tauta,"μετὰ ταῦτα, that means "After these" or "After these things."
Everything that comes from here on out takes place after the end of the Church Age. We went through that earlier when we discussed the Rapture. Some believe that the Church will be present on the Earth throughout the Tribulation, while others (myself included) believe Scripture points to believers being taken up to Heaven prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.
Chapter 4 begins like this:
"μετὰ ταῦτα I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place μετὰ ταῦτα.'" [Rev 4:1]
John is then immediately placed in Heaven, where he will remain for the duration of the revelation he describes in this book.
Upon arriving in Heaven, John sees God on the throne, some wild angelic beings that surround the throne and worship God, and 24 elders who wear white garments and victor's crowns. The elders join the angelic beings in worship.
I don't personally have much to add in commentary here that can't be better said by others, so I'm going to include two resources here.
The first is a short excerpt from a message given by John MacArthur, Bible scholar and pastor. He describes the 24 elders and explains exactly who they might be and what they might represent. While we cannot know for certain who these men are, Dr. MacArthur makes a compelling case that is consistent with imagery used elsewhere throughout Scripture.
(TL/DW - He believes they represent the Church, which will be present in Heaven after the Rapture)
The second resource I want to share is a bit from an online commentary. This captures a critical concept that describes the different approaches taken toward God and authority in our society today.
Who do you believe sits on the throne described below in Revelation 4:2?
"Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and someone was sitting on the throne." [Rev 4:2]
From the Enduring Word Bible Commentary:
"And behold, a throne: This throne was what first impressed John, and it is the centerpiece of this vision. John was fixated on the occupied throne, and everything else is described in relation to this throne.
The bottom line of atheism or materialism is that there is no throne, there is no seat of authority or power that the entire universe must answer to. The bottom line of humanism is that there is a throne, but man sits upon it.
Essentially, man cannot live without the concept of a throne, a supreme ruler. So if man de-thrones God, he will inescapably place himself or some other man upon the throne, perhaps a political leader, as was the case with the dictators Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.
And One sat on the throne: The throne is not empty. There is some One who sits on this great heavenly throne. The throne is a powerful declaration of not merely God’s presence, but of His sovereign, rightful reign, and His prerogative to judge.
We can’t think rightly about much of anything until we settle in our mind that there is an occupied throne in heaven, and the God of the Bible rules from the throne."
If you would like to read more from that online commentary, you can find it here.
Who do you think is on the throne? Get that sorted out, and so much will start to follow downstream from your answer.
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Ever since I started believing and learning about God, I've had a sort of peace around me with respect to what's going on in the world. I've been able to take a step back and watch events unfold without worrying. That's not to say I don't care or I don't prepare, but that I can look at things happening around me and observe them without letting them effect me emotionally. This video might explain why I feel that way better than any explanation I can give. I was talking to my buddy and said that if you can view the world by taking a step back, it's an extremely interesting time to be alive.
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I just had a bizarre conversation that I never thought I'd have. I was on a call with a vendor this morning, and he expressed his dissatisfaction with world leaders. He said, "We keep getting promised all these smooth, slick leaders, and none of them show up." And, "look at the Muslim extremists. If they would be nice and kind at first and THEN cut everyone's head off who disagrees, they would get so many more followers."
And then taking the cake, he said, "I mean, that's what the Bible says about the Antichrist. We need somebody like that to show up and unite everyone, and then quietly kill anyone who disagrees."
I asked him to clarify, and he reiterated his point. This guy is advocating FOR the rise of Antichrist. I'm not sure how you read Revelation and come away thinking, "You know, this 'Beast' guy has got it all sorted out." How will the people of the world fall for Antichrist? Apparently, at least one of them who work in sales for a Bay Area tech company is already hoping for his coming.
And then taking the cake, he said, "I mean, that's what the Bible says about the Antichrist. We need somebody like that to show up and unite everyone, and then quietly kill anyone who disagrees."
I asked him to clarify, and he reiterated his point. This guy is advocating FOR the rise of Antichrist. I'm not sure how you read Revelation and come away thinking, "You know, this 'Beast' guy has got it all sorted out." How will the people of the world fall for Antichrist? Apparently, at least one of them who work in sales for a Bay Area tech company is already hoping for his coming.
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This is the type of stuff that drives you onto your face. There is no rational, logical answer for that type of position, other than the world being a completely broken place and the only redemption is in Jesus.
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I had that conversation, but in the past couple weeks, I've also had conversations with three different people who are trying to learn more about Jesus. They each instigated the conversation, not me.
After that insane call this morning, it hit me - maybe we're now starting to undergo a spiritual awakening - some are awakening and looking for God, while others are awakening and looking for Satan.
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I own an IT staffing/recruiting/consulting firm and it's astonishing what these kids are putting on their professional LinkedIn profile pages. We have moved way beyond pronouns and into the kind of evil you came across on your call today. The FANG companies' employees are the most guilty. You can tell it's encouraged and rewarded in their corporate cultures. It's twisted and sick.
I recently told my wife I'm not sure how much longer I can work in this space.
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Definitely brother.
We have people coming out of literal Wican/Pagan beliefs and turning to Jesus.
We've had multiple people come to our church after leaving 20+ year homosexual relationships and turn to Jesus.
"We do not want another committee, we have too many already. What we want is a man of sufficient stature to hold the allegiance of all people, and to lift us out of the economic morass into which we are sinking. Send us such a man, and be he god or devil, we will receive him." Paul-Henri Spaak, EU architect
Many bible prophecy teachers have taught - erroneously - that the anti-christ will usher in a utopian era, appear to solve all the world's problems, until things begin to fall apart. I've heard many teach as though Earth will be a veritable paradise up until the midpoint of the 7 years, and still many more who teach a large gap between the rapture and the beginning of the 70th week. But the fact is the 1st rider will come to conquer, the 2nd rider will take peace from the earth. The world's going to fall apart beginning day 1 of the tribulation.
The notion that he'll make this earth a new age heaven, technology unlocking long life spans, ability to live in a virtual world, save us from aliens, etc, is appealing to the non-believer. Look at how vile they become. By the mid-point of the Tribulation when the 2 witnesses are killed, it becomes a world-wide holiday. They're angry at God not just for judging them and the earth, but angry at God for having the audacity to mess up their home. They have no promise of a better world, this one is all they have.
I don't recall any former wiccans, but we have had some former Jehovah's witnesses come to Christ at our church after many years in their delusion.
I watched a report months ago that said wiccan is the fastest growing religion inside the U.S. military. Some bases now have "churches" for such. The guy interviewed several of the kids (most looked to still be teenagers) what drew them to wicca, and most of them said the same thing: Harry Potter.
I'm not a bible thumper telling people how to morally live every second of their lives, but everyone better watch diligently what is coming into their homes. We're supposed to be watchmen, but watch first at your own house. Evil can easily creep in with you never knowing it until it has a deep foothold. To all of you, don't be that parent (or grandparent, or aunt or uncle or friend) who says this or that is no big deal, it's of no real influence, when we may have no idea of the influence of the subliminal and the invisible.
This reminds me of a Keith Richards (Rolling Stones) interview once, when asked about the impact of music, (paraphrasing) he said "Once you take music in, it's arrogant to think you control what it does to you." The same would hold true for literature.
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Being "on guard" is so important.
While many go to Ephesians 6, I've been more compelled by Nehemiah: rebuilding the wall/temple with one hand and a sword in the other.
The Spiritual Warfare is only becoming more and more overt. We must stand for the truth and the hope that is only found in the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Had a friend share this with me so I wanted to pass it along here:
WARNING: Do Not Be Deceived the “MARK” is Here! |
They say hindsight is 20/20; meaning, that after an event has happened, we feel that we should have been able to see the signs of an event unfolding, but for some reason, we couldn’t, and it is now apparent to us after the fact. Hindsight also does not do anything to protect us from dangerous events that we need to know about before they happen. What if complex future events were told to us by Jesus Christ himself as a warning and comfort to us so we know what to expect? We would then have NO EXCUSE and say we “didn’t know” as these events would be unfolding before our eyes precisely as Christ told us they would. But, would you listen and take heed? God loves His children and expects us to understand what he wrote as his message is not hidden but laid out for all to read. The Foundation for the “Mark of the Beast” is already here! There are two keywords in the phrase, and they are “Mark” and “Beast.” Through studying the scriptures (cover to cover), you’ll uncover the precise meanings God has assigned to these terms. “Mark” refers to sin, and “Beast” refers to an empire or world government. Therefore accepting the “Mark of the Beast” literally means to live in the sinful world driven by your own desires under the government which is contrary to God’s commandments. World governments have already started to redefine morality by declaring scriptural teachings as “hate speech,” and all the large tech platforms have started censoring conservative and Christian content since they do not follow what the governments nor people wish. Most people, including those calling themselves Christians, blindly follow what they are told and don’t even know what it means to follow Christ. The majority of Christians have already freely accepted the “mark of the beast” by living a cosmopolitan lifestyle even before the antichrist comes and forces those remaining true Christians to accept it or die. Please understand me: There will come a day when the antichrist will arrive on the scene and declare that anyone who does not accept his “Mark” will not be able to buy or sell and Christians know that if they accept his “Mark” they will not go to Heaven (Rev 19:20). Before the antichrist can enforce such a worldwide implementation of his mark, that foundation has to have already been laid and functional. All he adds to that foundation is to demand your total allegiance and denounce Jesus Christ as a requirement to receive his mark. This email is not about the final implementation of the antichrist's mark but what is currently happening worldwide and how the governments are setting up the foundation for that mark at a neck-breaking pace. Christ warned us, so we MUST pay attention: Jesus provided John His revelation telling us what is coming in our immediate future (because it has already started). We do not currently know for certain what this final antichrist mark will be when it comes but Jesus has told us that anyone that does not accept the mark will not be able to “buy or sell” (Rev 13:16-17). If you can’t buy or sell then you are cut-off from your money, your job, source of food and water, and cast out of your home (unable to pay your rent, mortgage, utilities, etc.) and most likely die of starvation. If you were a logical, intelligent person, you would look for what Christ describes to know where we were in His timeline. You would look for anything that we must “take” (or accept) in order to continue to buy and sell. If something was being strongly coerced upon us by the governments and if we didn’t take it, we would not be able to make money and live in this society, then we would know that this is what Christ was talking about as Christ made this the KEY point to John. I am not stepping out on a limb in the least to let you know categorically that the governments of the world are using COVID as a reason to force everyone on earth, sooner than later, to take the mRNA based “vaccines” and “boosters” and this provides them the foundation for the mark of the beast that the spirit of the antichrist will use to set up the necessary control system for the actual antichrist. In the news, nearly every day now, we see that businesses, schools, and even governments are stating that anyone who doesn’t take the vaccine will have restrictions placed upon them. These restrictions include expulsion from higher education, travel restrictions, gathering rules, and employment restrictions. Many universities and businesses are now forcing students and employees to take the vaccine or be expelled or terminated. The United Kingdom and France have suggested that those that don’t take the vaccine should not be able to “buy or sell” (Rev 13:17). In the United States, President Biden has requested that the Pentagon to look into adding the COVID-19 vaccine to the military’s mandatory shots. There are now many large employers that are requiring the vaccine and those that refuse will be terminated. Over 500 Universities and colleges already require the vaccine for students to receive higher education. The United States, through the drug companies, is now considering the use of the vaccine on everyone as young as 6 months old. The use of media and fear tactics and losing their freedoms is their primary means to get the citizens to take the shot. On September 2nd, 2021, the Prime Minister of Italy, Mario Draghi, stated that Italy might eventually make the vaccines mandatory for EVERYONE of eligible age. Italy has also already forced many jobs categories to take the vaccine or they “will not get paid”. Does that ring a bell? This should tell everyone that we are indeed in the last days as Christ warned us about. We need to pay closer attention to what Christ is telling us is coming so we can be prepared. Don’t worry if you take the vaccine – it is not the antichrist’s “mark”: The final mark that the antichrist will require that you give your absolute allegiance to the “beast” (or government) above God Himself in order to accept it. You will, in fact, disown God and, as a result, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgivable sin (Mark 3:29). The mark that condemns you is not something that you can accidentally take or have forced upon you. The most dangerous belief is that many people who identify themselves as “Christian” is that they can live their life any way they desire and still go to heaven. This is simply not the case and that would be identical to already accepting the “mark of the beast” as they are living for themselves in the world (see above). The foundation is being laid and over 5.4 billion of the 7.9 billion people on earth have taken the vaccine in less than a year. This is nothing less than altering the genetic makeup of each person on the planet to incorporate a single mRNA pattern within every person on the planet (Rom 1:23). There may be other reasons why the governments are pushing the injection of this mRNA code on everyone with threats of being cast out of education, your job, gatherings, and travel if you do not comply; but the fact that they are now saying “will not get paid” or “can not buy or sell,” is exactly what Christ said would happen so we know where we are in God’s timeline. The ending sequence has started. |
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Hey man, I went back and looked and couldn’t find the nazi stuff, what are you referring to exactly?
PleasureMoose
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Yeah a son doesn't deserve anything he has to earn what he receives in the eyes of his father.
Should never except anything. But earn everything
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He gets into it on page 2. Just some fascinating things about Nazis and the occult.
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God will not abandon what's his.
Every soul that ever lived gets or has already received a chance. No one will stand before God and be able to honestly say that they had no opportunity.
The uncomfortable truth for most that cling to what you wrote above is that most of those people have heard. They simply dismissed it. There have been missionaries covering the globe for hundreds of years. There are underground churches even in places that outlaw Christianity like N Korea and Iran, and now Afghanistan.
Further, God only holds you accountable for what you've heard. The scriptures say the "heavens declare his glory". A man may not know the cross and the savior, but it's ingrained in his heart at birth and confirmed by the creation that there is a creator, and that all must stand before him in judgment one day.
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How do we reconcile free will with God's omnipotence and biblical prophecy?
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We only have free will within certain parameters. The doctrine of Election lays this out fairly well. It's also one of the most controversial doctrine's among Christians because it highlights that we really aren't in control.
Free will also doesn't exist within Heaven. It's perfectly God's will.
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Free will or divine determination? I like to see life like a deck of cards. Determination is the hand God deals you. Free will is how you play the hand.
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"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vince (brevity is the art of genius)
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