Biblical Prophecy Thread

[yankmenoodle]

Your making my point. What about all the others that came before Jesus that just so happened to be geographically isolated from Christianity? They're screwed?

There's a man named Naaman in the Old Testament. He was a leper. He knew nothing about God. He had an Israeli servant girl that said if only Naaman would go to the prophet of Israel and be healed. He went to Israel and saw Elijah, and was healed, and began to worship God.
I think God will reveal Himself to everyone in some way.

 

[yankmenoodle]

I highly recommend "Learn the Bible in 24 hours" by Chuck Missler. It will give you a good start on understanding the Bible. Then I recommend Joseph Prince, New Creation Church in Singapore, to understand grace.

 

[Zgdaf]

Man, lots of good stuff in there. If it's alright, I might just pick up on the first two for now and pull a Psaki circle back on the latter two later.

You asked, "Do you think you need to be Christian to get to talk to God? Why can't a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew who pray to the same God need to reconsider what they think of God..."

The God of the Bible wants everyone to come to know Him (that's in Paul's second letter to Timothy, chapter 2, verse 4). He's made it incredibly easy for people to do so. He says:

1. I am perfect and you are not.
2. When you do things that are wrong, you stand in opposition to me, and you need to pay the penalty.
3. Doing wrong against a being of infinite worth has a steep penalty, which is eternal separation and punishment.
4. There's a way out, though. Jesus, coming to earth as both God and man, lived a perfect life and agreed to pay the penalty in our place.
5. Since Jesus was a man living a perfect life, He was a fitting substitution for us. Since He is God, His sacrifice is valuable enough to pay the penalty for anyone who wants it.
6. He gives it freely. All you have to do is ask Him.

That's it. All the good works and obedience part? That comes as a result of following Jesus. It's not the ticket to entry.

That's the main difference between following Jesus and trying to find another way to God. We can't afford to cover the cost of admission on our own, no matter what we do, because the debt we've incurred by doing evil against an infinite God is an unpayable debt.

Jesus gives it for free.

I'm by no means a Christian apologist (meaning someone who tries to lay out the reason for faith), so I'm sorry if that's unclear.... oh wow, I just apologized for not being an apologist. That's rich.

As for the ego bit, man, it's true. Churches are full of imperfect people, and I'm one of them. The thing that helps me remember my place is that good news I shared above. I can know God for free and it has nothing at all to do with how good I try to be. That helps with the humility aspect A LOT. I mean, God Himself died for me, and wants to give me the best gift possible for free. Incredible.

Lots going on this thread .. maybe this is a point of disagreement. I be,I’ve you pray to the same God as other religions. This dogma of they are different gods is a control mechanism.
so I do want to expand and challenge your beliefs, maybe to be an asshole, or maybe because I was on the receiving end of darkness in the name of Christ… either way I went out and explored, took part in other religions instead of studying them. End the day though these are your beliefs and whatever gives you peace I’m happy for you.
Here goes,,, the Hindus knew Jesus when he was missing for 20 something years. They view him as a fully realized master who taught them. If you can take the words from the apostle Paul, then be open to how others had real interactions with him.

Jesus Christ - Ananda India

It was Jesus Christ, who appeared to Babaji in the Himalayas and asked him to send this message of Self-Realizion to the West.

anandaindia.org

One last parting thought before I go back and catch up on the thread…
Have you thought of the parallels of Christianity and Buddhism? Basically the same teachings, Buddha born from a virgin, he made it for the commoners instead of the Hindu casts.. similar to Jews who were exclusive, Christianity welcomed everyone.

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

Lots going on this thread .. maybe this is a point of disagreement. I be,I’ve you pray to the same God as other religions. This dogma of they are different gods is a control mechanism.
so I do want to expand and challenge your beliefs, maybe to be an asshole, or maybe because I was on the receiving end of darkness in the name of Christ… either way I went out and explored, took part in other religions instead of studying them. End the day though these are your beliefs and whatever gives you peace I’m happy for you.
Here goes,,, the Hindus knew Jesus when he was missing for 20 something years. They view him as a fully realized master who taught them. If you can take the words from the apostle Paul, then be open to how others had real interactions with him.

Jesus Christ - Ananda India

It was Jesus Christ, who appeared to Babaji in the Himalayas and asked him to send this message of Self-Realizion to the West.

anandaindia.org

One last parting thought before I go back and catch up on the thread…
Have you thought of the parallels of Christianity and Buddhism? Basically the same teachings, Buddha born from a virgin, he made it for the commoners instead of the Hindu casts.. similar to Jews who were exclusive, Christianity welcomed everyone.

Fundamentally worldviews (religions) have to answer 4 questions.

1. Where do we come from (origin)
2. Why are we here (purpose)
3. What is good/bad (morallity)
4. Where are we going (destiny).

On the origin point alone, there is a huge difference between Hinduisim/Budhism/most isms that believe that God is creation, the foundation of karma/reincarnation/etc... and the mono-theistic religions that believe God created the universe from nothing

Science supports one of those views.

 

[ETNVol]

Lots going on this thread .. maybe this is a point of disagreement. I be,I’ve you pray to the same God as other religions. This dogma of they are different gods is a control mechanism.
so I do want to expand and challenge your beliefs, maybe to be an asshole, or maybe because I was on the receiving end of darkness in the name of Christ… either way I went out and explored, took part in other religions instead of studying them. End the day though these are your beliefs and whatever gives you peace I’m happy for you.
Here goes,,, the Hindus knew Jesus when he was missing for 20 something years. They view him as a fully realized master who taught them. If you can take the words from the apostle Paul, then be open to how others had real interactions with him.

Jesus Christ - Ananda India

It was Jesus Christ, who appeared to Babaji in the Himalayas and asked him to send this message of Self-Realizion to the West.

anandaindia.org

One last parting thought before I go back and catch up on the thread…
Have you thought of the parallels of Christianity and Buddhism? Basically the same teachings, Buddha born from a virgin, he made it for the commoners instead of the Hindu casts.. similar to Jews who were exclusive, Christianity welcomed everyone.

It's not just a matter of believing, celebrating, worshiping a being named Jesus. It has to be the right Jesus. The real Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible. He gave us no wiggle room for any other belief.

The muslims have their own version of Jesus, but he's not the savior, not the son of God (in fact, they teach you will burn in hell if you believe in Jesus as your salvation). Believing their version of Jesus is a one-way ticket to hell.

New Ageism teaches Jesus as an Ascended Master. They have many such masters, Christ made it undebateable that he was unique.

Hinduism has millions of gods. IIRC, hundreds of millions. Virtually everything about their religion is contrary to Christianity. There are no real parallels between the 2. Jesus did not go to India, just as he did not come to the American midwest and bury a book in the dirt. Yes, there's an ~18 year gap in what we're told of Jesus, from the time he was 12, til he was about 30. But, the hindu narrative of Christ is absurd. A young boy made his way across Asia teaching them things contrary to what he was documented to have taught the rest of his life, all while learning how to do yoga?

Jesus does not leave open that he's the Muslim Isa, nor the hindus version of himself. He left us only 2 possibilities: either he is who he claimed to be, the Son of God, the sacrifice for our sins, our savior, or he was a lunatic. There is no middle ground for him to be some sort of "Master" as the metaphysical religions look at him. He made that plain in his teachings, repeatedly.

 

[catfishpunter]

Here's a big "Whoa, wait, what?!?!?" part of the beginning of the book of Revelation. It gives us great insight into something that is currently happening in our society, and that will continue to happen over the coming decades.

Revelation 2 and 3 contain the letters Jesus had John write to the seven churches. The letters proceed in order from Ephesus to Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and then Laodicea. You might note that they proceed counterclockwise in order around the map, starting with the church closest to Patmos.

These letters outline the major issues facing the individual churches receiving each letter, but they also outline the major issues faced sequentially over time by the Church worldwide overall over the next 2,000+ years. Aspects of each of these churches can be found in the Church at any time throughout history, but the prevalent Church culture of any given era can be found reflected in its respective letter.

I'll do a quick summary of it, and dig in more deeply in future posts, but for now, I would encourage you to read each of the letters for yourself to see how it comes together.

The letter to the church in Ephesus deals with the problems facing the Church in the years immediately after the death of the Apostles. Jesus tells the Church that he loves their hard work, but He does not like that they have forgotten their first love - Him. This Church has fallen into starting to live a system of religious good deeds, but is losing focus on having Jesus be the main thing and the main motivator for everything.

The church in Smyrna gets a letter next, and this letter represents the Church in the era of intense Roman persecution, which Nero really pressed forward, and which continued under 10 evil Roman emperors. Jesus cryptically warns the Church that they will face major persecution for a period of "10 days," or periods of time, which may reflect those 10 emperors. Jesus urges this Church to stand strong during their persecution. Interestingly, the city name of Smyrna comes from the word for "myrrh," which is a fragrance that was used for mourning and preparing the dead for burial. Jesus was symbolically given myrrh as a gift from the wise men, and He was prepared for burial with myrrh. Myrrh releases its beautiful fragrance when it is crushed, and it is incredibly valuable. The symbolism here should strike you. By writing to the church in Smyrna/myrrh about their suffering and death, Jesus shows how He views the suffering of His brothers and sisters - when they are crushed, the beauty of their sacrifice is both mourned and deeply treasured.

The church in Pergamum represents a major shift in Church history. The Roman emperor Constantine famously converted to Christianity, ending official persecution of the Christians. In fact, the followers of Jesus quickly became favored citizens! With favor came partnership with the State. The name Pergamum means "bad marriage," which is what this was, and remains to this day. The Church of Jesus Christ is no good partner for any government. The Church was corrupted. Pagan priests and practitioners entered the Church as this time, which led many astray. Jesus warns this Church to avoid the pagan teachings (represented symbolically by the reference to the Old Testament story of Balaam), and also to avoid the teaching of the Nicolaitans. We do not know the teachings of the Nicolaitans, but their name comes from the words "Nike (victory)" and "laos (people)," and seems to mean, "Victory over the people." It is thought that this represented a group of domineering teachers who sought to impose their will and control over the laity, a practice which was previously condemned when Jesus castigated the Jewish teachers of His day.

One more note about Pergamum - there is a fascinating connection between a place of evil in this ancient city and the Nazi regime. I'll share that soon.

After the Church received government support and power, the next era of the Church is represented by the letter to the church in Thyatira, which reflects trends in Christianity of the Middle Ages. Jesus praises the faith, love and good deeds of Christians in this era, but He crushes them for allowing the teachings of the Old Testament woman Jezebel to lead many of their brethren astray. I encourage you to read the full story of Jezebel, found in 2 Kings, but here's the Cliff's Notes. Jezebel was an evil, evil queen of Israel who conspired with her equally evil husband, Ahab, to promote pagan immorality and idol worship. One of her greatest sins was to find false witnesses to accuse a man of crimes he did not commit, so that he could be condemned, murdered, and have his property stolen for use by the King.

If you're at all remotely aware of the horrible history of the organized, official Church of the Middle Ages, you know full well that this was common practice. Heretics were invented left and right in order to seize their property. People were slaughtered by the Church and their property stolen. Even the bodies of dead popes were exhumed and put on "trial" in sham Church courts. This is no anti-Catholic rant; it's simply the undeniable, very well-documented truth.

Here's an artist's rendering of what was referred to as the Cadaver Synod of 897.

Here's something wild - Jesus warns this Church that, if it does not repent of all of these wicked practices, that He "...will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with plague..." [Rev 2:22-23] I'm not generally one to assign natural disasters as judgments of God. In this case, it should give us pause to consider whether or not the terrible plagues of the Middle Ages, which killed half of Europe, reflect the warnings of Jesus here.

The church in Sardis receives a brutal rebuke - "you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead." [Rev 3:1] This is a church (and Church) that started well, but seems to just be dying on the vine. Jesus urges them - "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent." This letter to Sardis appears to represent the next era in Church history, as it describes what has become the fate of many of the denominations birthed from the Reformation. They "have a name," bold names that often tie to the brave stands of their founders, yet they are dying. Mainline Protestant denominations have famously been in decline for over a century. I will never forget a sociology course I took at UT-Austin back in 2000. The professor walked us through a history of religion in America, and he presented the puzzling paradox of the dying mainline Protestant churches. This was secular scholarship, mind you, not some fundamentalist seminary. He taught us and backed his assertions with data. He said that the uniform, historical trend has been that when a denomination starts to require less of its members in terms of personal life change and adherence to Scripture, that denomination starts to diminish in numbers. He showed us time and again how this was repeated throughout history.

Here's a quote from History.com, which outlines a particular time in the early 1700's that this happened, which ultimately led into the next era of Church history.

"In many ways, religion was becoming more formal and less personal during this time, which led to lower church attendance. Christians were feeling complacent with their methods of worship, and some were disillusioned with how wealth and rationalism were dominating culture. Many began to crave a return to religious piety." - Source Here

That "return to religious piety" led to the Great Awakening, which birthed the period of revival that lines up with the next letter in Revelation, which is to the church in Philadelphia. Jesus tells this Church - "Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have followed My word, and have not denied My name." [Rev 3:7] This period, from around the time of the Great Awakening, has continued on to the present day, which has seen the Gospel spread incredibly all over the world. Missionaries with "little power," often sent out and supported by a single congregation, have been able to take the message of Jesus all over the world. Movements with "little power" have been able to spread on their own, empowered only by the power of Jesus and the "open door" He has given the Church during this time period. The Church in China is a wonderful example of this, as it spreads like wildfire through underground, forbidden churches that meet in homes. They are persecuted relentlessly, but nothing the CCP tries to do can force shut the door that Jesus has declared open....

....but things are changing. We are likely in the twilight days of the church of Philadelphia era, because a new Christianity is rising, and it is gaining in popularity around the world. It is the Christianity of the church in Laodicea.

This board has a limit of 10,000 characters per post, so Laodicea will come immediately after this one.

 

[catfishpunter]

"Laodicea" comes from the words "laos/people" and "dike/justice." The name meaning is a bit unclear, but it can be understood as some variant of "the rule of the people" or "the justice of the people" - basically, the idea is the far opposite extreme of the Nicolaitans. Whatever the people think is right in the Church, is what is right. The apostle Paul warned about this exact type of thinking in his second letter to his student Timothy:

"For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, and they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths." [2 Tim 4:3-4]

In a church (or Church era) where the people dictate the message, what might that look like? Jesus shares in his letter to the church of Laodicea:

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth." [Rev 3:15-16]

Let's discuss this first condemnation. Teachers will often use this passage to try and encourage Christians to be "on fire" for Jesus. They'll say something well-meaning, like, "See, Jesus would rather you be cold and completely against Him than just be a lukewarm Christian. You should want to be HOT and on fire for Him."

Sadly, I think I taught this passage like that once or twice in my day.

There's a much better interpretation, however, and it has to do with geography and ancient municipal water supplies.

Laodicea was neighbored by the city of Hierapolis to the north, which had hot springs, useful for baths. Colossae to the south had cold springs for drinking water. Laodicea, however, did not have a local source of water, so they had to transport cold water into the town via aqueduct. The water that arrived by aqueduct was lukewarm upon arrival. Over a six mile journey, the water picked up impurities, and made for a much less than optimal drinking experience.

With that in mind, we would be better off reading this admonition to the Laodiceans differently. They were far too exposed to the surrounding culture and environment. They did not retain a useful and restorative quality about them, because they allowed themselves over time to acclimate and become just like the culture around them - lukewarm.

The first characteristic we ought to look for in this Laodicean Church age, then, is a Church culture that is effectively undifferentiated from the secular culture at large. This could be expressed in many ways - non-existent moral standards, a universalist view ("Hey, all religions are great!"), theology that is molded to fit cultural norms, etc.

What else should we look for in this age? Well, Jesus continues with his admonition...

"Because you say, 'I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have no need of anything,' and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to apply to your eyes so that you may see." [Rev 3:17-18]

Laodicea was a very wealthy town, and it had a textiles and pharmacological industry. Jesus is referencing that, showing on one hand that this church's material weatlh in no way reflects their spiritual condition. They must turn to Him for their spiritual needs, because they are severely lacking, though they boast about their material wealth.

Let me be blunt here and name some names. The Kenneth Copelands, Joel Osteens, and Benny Hinns of the world run their churches based off what is called the "Prosperity Gospel," and the "Word of Faith" movement. Their work (and many others) and teaching is unbiblical - period. They claim that God wants you to be rich; God wants you to be healthy; God wants you to be successful.

No. God wants you to be surrendered to Him. What He has in store for each of us remains to be seen. Some will live in health, while others will suffer. Some will acquire wealth, while others will live in poverty.

Their movement seeks to operate God Himself - they believe that a positive mindset and positive speech can cause material well-being to appear from God. Some of these teachers urge their followers to "claim" their own wealth, health and success, even when their present circumstances do not reflect it. This does not represent the teaching of Jesus, and it sounds a whole lot like the claims made by the Laodiceans.

Folks, we're starting to see the rise of the Laodicean Church era. On one hand, the world is filling up with churches that are denying biblical teaching of theology, salvation, and godly living, and on the other hand, it's meeting churches that preach an empty, materialistic prosperity gospel.

The Philadelphia Church is still moving across the globe, but this younger generation is being enticed by the promises of "I'm OK, you're OK" and prosperity taught by the Laodiceans.

And that's the last letter.

What happens after that? Well, let's just say that the focus shifts away from the Church, and business as usual on the Earth is no longer business as usual.

There's so much more richness to be shared about these letters, these individual churches, these Church Eras, etc., but I recognize that this is already a ridiculously long post.

I think I'll follow up next with that post about Pergamum and the Nazi regime.

 

[catfishpunter]

I just remembered something very important, which takes timely precedence over the Pergamum story. The Jewish story is tied integrally into biblical prophecy, both in the Old and New Testament.

Today, July 17th, is a very sad day for Jews around the world. It is the day of the year known as Tisha B'Av. It's the ninth day of the month of Av in the Hebrew calendar. It is a day that has seen unspeakable horror for the Jews throughout their history (The Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, so Tisha B'Av does not occur on the same date of our calendar every year).

There are other Jewish tragedies that occurred on this date, but here are several major ones:

OLD TESTAMENT HISTORY
- On this day, the First Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

- On this day, the second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

UNDER ROMAN OCCUPATION AFTER THE TIME OF JESUS
- On this day, the last stronghold of the Bar Kochba revolt was defeated by the Romans, which led to the subsequent slaughter of over 500,000 Jews in 135 AD.

- On this day, the Romans plowed over the Temple Mount in 136 AD (which was prophesied several hundred years earlier in the Old Testament book of Micah "Therefore on account of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest." [Mic 3:12]) All of these things happened, as the Romans subsequently built a pagan temple on the Temple Mount. The "high places" in the Old Testament refer to sites of pagan worship.

MIDDLE AGES IN EUROPE
- On this day, King Edward I (Longshanks, of Braveheart infamy) signed a decree to expel the Jews from England in 1290 AD. Interestingly, after 800 years, THIS WEEK the Church of England announced that it will issue an official apology for the brutal anti-semitic policies of the nation that began in 1222 AD (see link here).

- On this day, the expulsion of the Jews began in Spain in 1492.

WORLD WAR I
- On this day, Germany entered World War I in 1914.

WORLD WAR II
- On this day, Himmler presented his plan for the "Final Solution" in 1940.

- On this day, one year later, the "Final Solution" began in 1941.

- On this day, one year later, deportation from the Warsaw ghettos began, as Jews were sent to Treblinka. Over 270,000 Jews would be killed in seven weeks in 1942.

 

[catfishpunter]

Nazis.

We've already mentioned them in the previous post in this thread, and this certainly won't be the final mention. We'll use the example of Hitler as he represents a "type" or foreshadowing of future history's all time evil man - The Antichrist. He fulfilled a role as an antichrist, as many other men in history have done. By looking at how their evil deeds played out, we can see some small scale examples of how the fulfillment of biblical prophecies around The Antichrist might come to fruition.

For now, though, I want to share a brief side story about a city mentioned above - Pergamum - and its connection to the Nazi regime.

Pergamum, also known as Pergamos, Pergamon, and modern-day Bergama is an ancient city, included in the Bible only in the letter Jesus sends by the hand of John in the book of Revelation. That letter starts off with a wild sentence, which we did not discuss earlier, but will read now.

"I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold firmly to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." [Rev 2:13]

According to church legend, Antipas was a Christian who was martyred by being boiled alive in oil inside a brazen bull. This torture method consisted of putting a victim inside a bull and lighting a fire underneath it. The bull had nostril holes, through which both steam and the victims' screams could escape, which entertained the perverse onlookers who gathered to watch executions. Here's a modern recreation of this device.

Whether Antipas truly was killed in this manner or in some other way, all we know is that Jesus Himself claims that he was martyred, and that it occurred in Pergamum.

Twice, Jesus mentions that Pergamum is the place where Satan dwells, once referring more specifically to it as the place where Satan has his throne.

That could mean many things, but a lot of Christian scholars believe it has to do with demonic worship that took place in the city, potentially at the city's acropolis, which was home to The Great Altar of Pergamon. The Great Altar is the largest known Greek altar, and was dedicated to the worship of Zeus and Athena.

This altar was built before the time of Christ and survived hundreds of years of service before suffering the erosion and decay of time. It lay in ruins until the late 19th century, when a deal was struck between the Ottoman Empire and the Germans, who wanted to excavate the altar and relocate its ruins to Berlin.

They took great pains to excavate the site and reconstruct the altar in Berlin, which you can now visit today on Museum Island at the Pergamonmuseum. It began to be displayed publicly in 1930. There it is below - at best, an ancient site of pagan demon worship that was located in the city where, according to Jesus, Satan had his throne.

The altar proved inspirational to Albert Speer, chief Nazi architect. He used it as the basis for his design of the grandstands at the Nazi parade grounds in Nuremburg. The focal point was Hitler's podium. Rather than a place to offer burnt sacrifices in worship to Zeus, all eyes would be on Hitler.

Hitler wanted the complex to evoke a religious experience, but rather than focus on the divine, he wanted focus on himself. You've almost certainly seen photos of the nighttime experience Speer and Hitler created at these parade grounds in Nuremburg, called the Cathedral of Light.

It was from this parade ground, standing in front of his people, all in his thrall, where Hitler first publicly announced the "Final Solution" for the Jews.

This symbolism must not be missed.

Hitler, a precursor of The Antichrist, stood in a building modeled after the largest Greek altar for pagan demon worship, and as he stood in the place where burnt sacrifices would have been offered, he declared a final war on the Jews, God's chosen people. Satan's chosen representative, Hitler began a Holocaust, which is an ancient Greek word that means "animal sacrifice that is consumed completely by fire." Hitler thus offered to his god, Satan, a burnt sacrifice of millions of God's chosen people.

According to Revelation, the world will see this again, and on a greater scale than Hitler ever accomplished. As bad as Hitler was, another far worse than him is coming.

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

Nazis.

We've already mentioned them in the previous post in this thread, and this certainly won't be the final mention. We'll use the example of Hitler as he represents a "type" or foreshadowing of future history's all time evil man - The Antichrist. He fulfilled a role as an antichrist, as many other men in history have done. By looking at how their evil deeds played out, we can see some small scale examples of how the fulfillment of biblical prophecies around The Antichrist might come to fruition.

For now, though, I want to share a brief side story about a city mentioned above - Pergamum - and its connection to the Nazi regime.

Pergamum, also known as Pergamos, Pergamon, and modern-day Bergama is an ancient city, included in the Bible only in the letter Jesus sends by the hand of John in the book of Revelation. That letter starts off with a wild sentence, which we did not discuss earlier, but will read now.

"I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold firmly to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." [Rev 2:13]

According to church legend, Antipas was a Christian who was martyred by being boiled alive in oil inside a brazen bull. This torture method consisted of putting a victim inside a bull and lighting a fire underneath it. The bull had nostril holes, through which both steam and the victims' screams could escape, which entertained the perverse onlookers who gathered to watch executions. Here's a modern recreation of this device.

Whether Antipas truly was killed in this manner or in some other way, all we know is that Jesus Himself claims that he was martyred, and that it occurred in Pergamum.

Twice, Jesus mentions that Pergamum is the place where Satan dwells, once referring more specifically to it as the place where Satan has his throne.

That could mean many things, but a lot of Christian scholars believe it has to do with demonic worship that took place in the city, potentially at the city's acropolis, which was home to The Great Altar of Pergamon. The Great Altar is the largest known Greek altar, and was dedicated to the worship of Zeus and Athena.

This altar was built before the time of Christ and survived hundreds of years of service before suffering the erosion and decay of time. It lay in ruins until the late 19th century, when a deal was struck between the Ottoman Empire and the Germans, who wanted to excavate the altar and relocate its ruins to Berlin.

They took great pains to excavate the site and reconstruct the altar in Berlin, which you can now visit today on Museum Island at the Pergamonmuseum. It began to be displayed publicly in 1930. There it is below - at best, an ancient site of pagan demon worship that was located in the city where, according to Jesus, Satan had his throne.

The altar proved inspirational to Albert Speer, chief Nazi architect. He used it as the basis for his design of the grandstands at the Nazi parade grounds in Nuremburg. The focal point was Hitler's podium. Rather than a place to offer burnt sacrifices in worship to Zeus, all eyes would be on Hitler.

Hitler wanted the complex to evoke a religious experience, but rather than focus on the divine, he wanted focus on himself. You've almost certainly seen photos of the nighttime experience Speer and Hitler created at these parade grounds in Nuremburg, called the Cathedral of Light.

It was from this parade ground, standing in front of his people, all in his thrall, where Hitler first publicly announced the "Final Solution" for the Jews.

This symbolism must not be missed.

Hitler, a precursor of The Antichrist, stood in a building modeled after the largest Greek altar for pagan demon worship, and as he stood in the place where burnt sacrifices would have been offered, he declared a final war on the Jews, God's chosen people. Satan's chosen representative, Hitler began a Holocaust, which is an ancient Greek word that means "animal sacrifice that is consumed completely by fire." Hitler thus offered to his god, Satan, a burnt sacrifice of millions of God's chosen people.

According to Revelation, the world will see this again, and on a greater scale than Hitler ever accomplished. As bad as Hitler was, another far worse than him is coming.

Pretty amazing analysis @catfishpunter

Can’t help but look at that night shot and hear GHW Bush’s comment about “light of 1000 points.”

 

[catfishpunter]

Pretty amazing analysis @catfishpunter

Can’t help but look at that night shot and hear GHW Bush’s comment about “light of 1000 points.”

Wild stuff, isn't it? I don't know what all to make of the meaning when a society decides to devote its resources to a project like rebuilding the Pergamon Altar. You don't really want to read too much into it, because it almost seems nuts to do so, right?

The thing is, when you read the Old Testament, it is FULL of stories of wicked kings who went out and rebuilt the old pagan "high places" that their fathers had torn down, and that devotion to rebuilding pagan worship sites reflected a shift in priorities for the nation, moving away from God's priorities to their own selfish worship, which was a sensual, self-serving demonic affair, as they would worship Ba'al, Molech, Asherah, etc.

In modern terms, does that mean that every archaeological restoration of some pagan instrument, shrine, etc., implies that the nation or group undertaking it is going to take part in pagan demon worship?

I don't think so, but I think that Christians who are involved in such efforts ought to think and pray about what they're doing, and why they're doing it. Are they edifying God, or introducing a new generation to ancient cultic practices that are better left alone?

That's what makes this example with the Nazis so fascinating. They actually did the modern equivalent of the wicked ancient Israelite kings. In that parade grounds, they took inspiration from a site of demonic worship and used it to build a site for Hitler worship, which by extension, is worship of Satan, whom he served.

I'm going to bring up another example of this type of behavior that ties to another ancient artifact in that same museum in Berlin. This major artifact comes from the most wicked city ever built - Babylon - and was given the same level of respect and care as the Pergamon Altar. It doesn't tie to the Nazis; rather, I believe that it reflects the values system that Revelation foretells will dominate the world religious scene under The Antichrist.

The last thing I would say to other readers of this thread (though, @Hoosier in Mad Town, given your comments throughout this thread, I have no doubt you already do this) is that you should believe exactly nothing that I say. Go and read, pray and study for yourself. Test everything. As we've seen over the past several years, fake news and manipulation is a real thing. Don't fall prey to it anywhere, including here.

 

[Boom82]

Nazis.

We've already mentioned them in the previous post in this thread, and this certainly won't be the final mention. We'll use the example of Hitler as he represents a "type" or foreshadowing of future history's all time evil man - The Antichrist. He fulfilled a role as an antichrist, as many other men in history have done. By looking at how their evil deeds played out, we can see some small scale examples of how the fulfillment of biblical prophecies around The Antichrist might come to fruition.

For now, though, I want to share a brief side story about a city mentioned above - Pergamum - and its connection to the Nazi regime.

Pergamum, also known as Pergamos, Pergamon, and modern-day Bergama is an ancient city, included in the Bible only in the letter Jesus sends by the hand of John in the book of Revelation. That letter starts off with a wild sentence, which we did not discuss earlier, but will read now.

"I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold firmly to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." [Rev 2:13]

According to church legend, Antipas was a Christian who was martyred by being boiled alive in oil inside a brazen bull. This torture method consisted of putting a victim inside a bull and lighting a fire underneath it. The bull had nostril holes, through which both steam and the victims' screams could escape, which entertained the perverse onlookers who gathered to watch executions. Here's a modern recreation of this device.

Whether Antipas truly was killed in this manner or in some other way, all we know is that Jesus Himself claims that he was martyred, and that it occurred in Pergamum.

Twice, Jesus mentions that Pergamum is the place where Satan dwells, once referring more specifically to it as the place where Satan has his throne.

That could mean many things, but a lot of Christian scholars believe it has to do with demonic worship that took place in the city, potentially at the city's acropolis, which was home to The Great Altar of Pergamon. The Great Altar is the largest known Greek altar, and was dedicated to the worship of Zeus and Athena.

This altar was built before the time of Christ and survived hundreds of years of service before suffering the erosion and decay of time. It lay in ruins until the late 19th century, when a deal was struck between the Ottoman Empire and the Germans, who wanted to excavate the altar and relocate its ruins to Berlin.

They took great pains to excavate the site and reconstruct the altar in Berlin, which you can now visit today on Museum Island at the Pergamonmuseum. It began to be displayed publicly in 1930. There it is below - at best, an ancient site of pagan demon worship that was located in the city where, according to Jesus, Satan had his throne.

The altar proved inspirational to Albert Speer, chief Nazi architect. He used it as the basis for his design of the grandstands at the Nazi parade grounds in Nuremburg. The focal point was Hitler's podium. Rather than a place to offer burnt sacrifices in worship to Zeus, all eyes would be on Hitler.

Hitler wanted the complex to evoke a religious experience, but rather than focus on the divine, he wanted focus on himself. You've almost certainly seen photos of the nighttime experience Speer and Hitler created at these parade grounds in Nuremburg, called the Cathedral of Light.

It was from this parade ground, standing in front of his people, all in his thrall, where Hitler first publicly announced the "Final Solution" for the Jews.

This symbolism must not be missed.

Hitler, a precursor of The Antichrist, stood in a building modeled after the largest Greek altar for pagan demon worship, and as he stood in the place where burnt sacrifices would have been offered, he declared a final war on the Jews, God's chosen people. Satan's chosen representative, Hitler began a Holocaust, which is an ancient Greek word that means "animal sacrifice that is consumed completely by fire." Hitler thus offered to his god, Satan, a burnt sacrifice of millions of God's chosen people.

According to Revelation, the world will see this again, and on a greater scale than Hitler ever accomplished. As bad as Hitler was, another far worse than him is coming.

Absolutely fascinating. Keep it coming please!

 

[catfishpunter]

The Pergamonmuseum is home to another striking reconstruction from ancient history - this one from ancient Babylon. The Ishtar Gate made its way to Berlin in the same manner as the Pergamon Altar, in pieces at the turn of the last century.

Millions of fragments of glazed brick were shipped in crates, and a team of archaeologists, artists, and ceramicists reconstructed the existing ancient bricks, and supplemented them with newly-fired bricks.

The Ishtar Gate was reassembled and put on display the same year as the Pergamon Altar - 1930.

This imposing gate is actually the smaller gate that existed in the original Ishtar Gate complex in Babylon. The larger gate is, I believe I remember reading, still in crates and fragments in Berlin. Here's a rendering of what it might have all looked like back in Babylonian times.

Ancient Babylon was something else. Its walls were legendary. Historians debate as to the veracity of his claims, but ancient Greek historian Herodotus claimed that the walls were 56 miles long around the city, 80 feet thick, 320 feet tall, and dotted with 250 defensive towers. The city was dominant, and believed to be impenetrable.

It was as wicked as it was powerful.

Babylon first appears in the Bible in Genesis, where it is also recognized for its incredible building capabilities, although under a slightly different name - Babel.

It was at Babel that mankind, under the leadership of a powerful individual man, Nimrod, defied God and built a tower that would symbolize and effect the centralization of leadership and worship. It was the birthplace of all pagan and false religion.

As far as we can tell, Nimrod was the first antichrist-like figure.

In the Genesis account, God, seeing the evil that Nimrod was orchestrating, scattered the people by confusing their language and spreading them across the earth. God's concern was what this unity under evil would lead them to do. He said, "“Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they have started to do, and now nothing which they plan to do will be impossible for them." [Gen 11:6]

We shouldn't read that the wrong way. God wasn't scared or threatened by the people. He instead knew the incredible wickedness that comes when a single man selfishly consolidates power unto himself.

God separated mankind into the nations, and ever since, man has sought to re-consolidate. This reconsolidation is occurring now on a minor scale, yet when The Antichrist comes, it will happen in a definitive, Babel-like way.

There's a LOT more to be said about this, including some ties into the modern world, but I've got to run for a bit.

For now, I'll leave you with this promotional poster for the European Union, along with a picture of the EU parliament building in Strasbourg.

Like I said, re-consolidation. They're not shy about what they're after, either.

 

[shiv]

Great thread OP thanks.

Not trying to verify or validate this info below, just saw it on the Chan’s and passing it on as interesting

 

[shiv]

I’m going to catch up reading everything and hopefully contribute when I can gather some focus

 

[catfishpunter]

Great thread OP thanks.

Not trying to verify or validate this info below, just saw it on the Chan’s and passing it on as interesting

View attachment 33261

Thanks for sharing. This fella's doing a common thing, which is running fast and loose. I think he may have read a little of the Bible, but he hasn't had his nose stuck in it.

We'll actually address a LOT of what he did, but I hope to show through Scripture, history and current events an interpretation that is very different from his, and one that will stand up to some pretty rigorous questioning. That's my hope, that folks will not take it at face value, and instead, check to see if what is said is right.

That said, what's coming in prophecy is shocking - I mean, we've already hit on the Nazis twice and the EU once. It just gets more interesting as we go.

 

[catfishpunter]

The book of Revelation follows a very basic outline, which is laid out for us in the first chapter. It's a verse we skipped over earlier, but is worth reading now. In it, Jesus is speaking to John, telling him what to write:

"...write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things." [Rev 1:19]

That's it. The most confusing book in the Bible follows a simple, three part outline.

1. The things which John has already seen
2. The things which are
3. The things which will take place after these things

1. The things which John has already seen - This is the vision of the glorified Jesus John saw and relayed in chapter one. It's a remarkable image, and establishes the authority under whom John writes for the rest of the book.

2. The things which are - This is the seven letters to the seven churches.

3. The things which will take place after these things - Everything else in the book.

You might be following along and thinking that the division between the first and second parts make sense, but not totally buying the split between the second and third parts. After all, I told you that the letters to the churches showed the general trend for the Church overall going into the future, so how does that qualify as "the things which are?"

First, to the ancient reader, it would not have been apparent that the seven letters outlined any sort of future in Church history. That has only become apparent for those of us in these latter times, as we have the benefit of hindsight and can see how well the letters line up. John's contemporary readers would have read that section as "the things which are."

Second, any future reader who would have seen enough of a pattern in the letters to recognize their overarching meaning for the global Church would have been able to identify them as "the things which are" as being part of the current era in world history we now call The Church Age. This period in history began after Jesus's ascension into Heaven, when the Church received the power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. That period has continued uninterrupted until now...

...but what happens next, and is there a transition out of the Church Age?

Revelation was originally written in Greek, and the Greek gives us a clue. When Jesus says, "after these things" in this verse, the Greek words He uses are μετὰ ταῦτα -that is, "meta tauta," or "after these."

That same term, μετὰ ταῦτα (meta tauta) appears again in Revelation immediately after the end of the letter to the last church, the church of the people in Laodicea.

When Jesus says to write the things which are μετὰ ταῦτα, and then uses the words μετὰ ταῦτα to start a new section of Scripture, we have a pretty good guess that whatever is coming is indeed "after these things."

To drive the point home, the entire first verse of Chapter 4 reads as such, with μετὰ ταῦτα replacing "after these things" at both the beginning and the end of the verse, just so you can see the clear intent of the message:

"μετὰ ταῦτα I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place μετὰ ταῦτα.'" [Rev 4:1]

Chapter 4 of Revelation thus kicks off the events that will define the end of the world, and if you're in doubt, after just a bit of reading, it will become clear that what is being described is like nothing that has ever happened yet on the earth, and so, whenever it occurs, it is certainly μετὰ ταῦτα.

OK, that's the last time I'll use μετὰ ταῦτα, well, maybe one more - it's like the cat game from Super Troopers.

μετὰ ταῦτα

 

[QuanChi]

 

[RollyInRaleigh]

Thanks for doing this!

 

[catfishpunter]

Thanks for doing this!

I've got to do it in bursts, as the work week is pretty brutal for me. I've got some more good content coming in a day or so.

 

[Viking]

more.......................................SKOL!

 

[MIZCDB]

Y’all got any more of that Revelation talk?

 

[Jtrain80]

Can we keep this going? If someone else wants to chime in, that is cool with me.

 

[catfishpunter]

Apologies all for the delay. I've had family visiting in town, and it's one of those types of visits where you just don't know how many more like it you'll have left. You know what I mean - time and age catch up with all of us. We've had in-laws here for a solid week, with another week to go, and it has been wonderful. I've been truly blessed with a wonderful family on my wife's side, and she is equally happy with the family she married into.

I've got some time tonight, though, so let's get after something very interesting...

"What happens when you don't have the Christians here anymore?"

There's a concept in Christianity referred to as the Rapture. It's a moment in time when God will suddenly call and everyone who has placed his faith in Jesus will answer. We will be taken to be with the Lord in an instant.

This might sound horribly unfair, or some sort of "holier than thou" deal, where this group of people who think they're somehow better than everybody else finally get to prove it by having their day in the sun, where all the lesser people are left behind.

That's not it at all.

A better way to think about it is as such - anyone who wants to follow Jesus can do so right now, and someday, Jesus will give those people exactly what they asked for. He will also allow anyone who didn't want to be with Him to stay right where they're at.

In a very gentlemanly way, we're getting exactly what we decide we want.

In future posts, we'll get into the Scriptural basis for the Rapture, which is a heavily analyzed and debated topic. There are entire groups of Christians who do not believe anything like this will happen at all, and we'll get into that, too.

For now, though, I wanted to run a bit of a thought exercise based on the question above (and below):

"What happens when you don't have the Christians here anymore?"

In an instant, and without warning, the world will be changed one day. Any person who has placed his faith in Jesus will be called away, and all others will be left behind.

What changes on the earth?

Well, first, we ought to expect sheer chaos. Think about the crippling of the world we have seen during Covid, when a large, yet still relatively small percentage of people became sick and died. Supply chains were disrupted, shelves were out of stock, entire countries were put on lockdown, and militaries engaged to keep certain populations in line.

Now, imagine a scenario where portions of the population immediately vanish worldwide. Certain countries which proudly boast an ascendant atheist tradition (Iceland, for instance) will be less impacted, which is to be expected. Other countries with strong populations of Christians will likely be severely impacted - South Korea is a good example.

There will be some surprises, however.

Places such as Iran, North Korea, and China, which keep their Christians under their thumb, will see surprisingly large numbers of disappearances. Folks, the Church is strong in these countries. A friend who works with missionaries tells me that the Chinese underground church asks us not to pray for their safety, because they prefer the amazing dependence they have on Jesus while under persecution.

He also tells me that they pray routinely for the Church in America to be persecuted, in order that we believers here might actually seriously follow Jesus.

America - a "Christian" nation. That will be the other surprise. Some places that loudly boast of their Christian tradition will not have nearly the number of disappearances one might expect. Faith in Jesus is not inherited, nor is it passive. A person must actually decide to believe in Jesus as Savior on his own, and the millions of "in name only" Christians around the world may sadly discover that having a Nativity set out at Christmas and relying on Grandma's faith doesn't exactly cut it.

Remember, we all get to choose.

So again, sheer chaos. Entire families have disappeared. Entire extended families have disappeared. Following Jesus recognizes no social standing, so every group from beggars to farmers to billionaires will see people go to be with the Lord and others left behind.

Pilots flying planes, drivers in 18 wheelers, doctors performing surgery, anchors giving the news, will all answer Jesus's call in mid-activity.

The immediate result will be devastation, and that's the easy part for everyone left here.

The aftermath will be far, far worse.

When the Christians are gone, it will be as if a dam, the dam, has burst - the dam holding back evil, that is. You might feel like the world's a pretty sorry place at times right now. I mean, look at us, we spent all the technological advances of mankind learning how to slaughter one another more effectively during the 20th century. With all of our enlightenment, we simply decided to kill each other in record numbers.

And yet, evil does not yet rule the day, but it will soon, for a time.

When the Christians disappear, as much as there is panic in the populace, there will be a group who privately say, "Good, it's about time. Now we can get to work."

John D. Rockefeller was allegedly once asked how much money was enough. His answer - "Just a little bit more." The same goes for power. People in power always want just a little bit more. If you don't believe me, well, where have you been for the past 18 months? This past year has all been a child's school play dress rehearsal version of a grand, Broadway-scale production that will one day take place around the world, and the theme of that show will be the consolidation of power and the crushing of dissent.

When the followers of Jesus disappear, it's opening night.

For all our chest-thumping and patriotic boasts, none of us who are left behind (may no one who reads this post be left) will stand a chance, for the crushing, sweeping all-consuming world domination to come won't be run something any of us can manage or fight against.

It won't be some politician, the fake media, central banks, the Illuminati, the Masons, the Bilderbergs, the World Economic Forum, George Soros, the Rothschilds, or even Kim Kardashian pulling the strings.

Satan himself will have free reign, and people who chose not to follow Jesus will find Satan incredibly seductive.

There will be a rapid political power free for all. The Bible describes the rise of a one world government controlled by Satan's puppet - the Antichrist. There will be leaders all over the world, however, who maneuver and fight for power. Wars of brief opportunity will be fought as people look to settle old scores, take out suddenly vulnerable rivals, and redraw boundaries.

There are several ways that all might go down, and what you experience in those early days after the Rapture may largely be dependent on the country in which you live. Just think about China, for instance. In a moment of unprecedented global instability, do you think Taiwan and Hong Kong will suddenly be enough, or will war games decades in the making suddenly be acted out on the world stage?

At some point, war will come, and millions upon millions will die as the greedy powermongers show their true colors and let their lust for control run unbridled.

When the dust settles, the Antichrist will rule the world, as his offer of peace and security seems both miraculous and far too good to pass up.

As I now leave the realm of interpretation and speculate more generally on what that world might look like, consider the following:

In this post-Rapture world, we ought to expect never before seen levels of mental illness - despair, anxiety, depression and suicide all at record levels. Again, Covid was a sneak preview of what happens to mental health in a time of crisis, and it was not pretty.

Trillions of dollars in assets will become ownerless overnight. The homes, businesses, and finances of Christians around the world will have no heir, with millions of people vanishing intestate. For others, charting a path to a rightful heir will be next to impossible, as courts would collapse under an impossible burden.

What an opportunity to calm a needy populace. "Friends, those people who vanished have left us, as you know, with a tremendous burden. They chose to leave. Their assets, therefore, rightfully belong to us. We will begin an immediate distribution program to make right the wrongs we suffer due to those who chose to leave us. All assets of the vanished are now, by executive order, officially State assets. You will be housed. You will be fed. You will be paid."

This isn't Socialism, and it isn't welfare. It's the bread part of bread and circuses.

What about the circuses part?

Jesus told His disciples that they were "the salt of the earth." [Matt 5:13] Salt preserves, it keeps flesh from rotting. Jesus's followers, from the disciples' day until now, have been the physical representation of Him on earth. The Church is described as the Body of Christ, and His followers as His hands and feet. When we are removed, the salt leaves the flesh, which begins to rot.

This is no endorsement of Christian moralism and legalism; rather, people who follow Jesus keep the world from darkness by living lives of love - loving Jesus and loving others, and teaching others to do the same. Jesus also taught his followers, "You are the light of the world." [Matt 5:14]

When the salt is gone and the light goes out, the world is left to rot in darkness.

The circus then comes to town, and it's horrifying.


There's a 10,000 character limit, so I'll wrap this up in the post immediately following this one.

 

[catfishpunter]

Continued from above...

Be honest for just a moment. Think about all the terrible things you (we, as I am right in this group) have ever consumed for entertainment. We are a debauched people, and becoming more so every day.

With the Christians "and their annoying, 'oh, I'm so much better than you' out of date morality" out of the way, what terrible changes will fall upon our global society?

Think about how rapidly we have become the most narcissistic, bloodthirsty, lustful generation, especially as compared to just 20 years ago. With the Christians gone, the words of Aleister Crowley will be lived in high definition - "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

Drag queen story time, 3578 pronouns, making heroes of the wicked and wicked of the heroes, hardcore drug addiction, murder in the streets, all sex with all people at all times - those are just the beginning. With the Christians gone, the senses will rule the masses, and the circus masters will give them everything their senses could ever desire... for a time.

The final totalitarian trap will be set, and then it will be sprung. Intoxication will give way to total domination as the world buckles under its new Satanic master.

There will be hope, though. The Bible teaches that, during this time, there will be a massive worldwide spiritual awakening. Though billions will likely still reject Jesus as Lord, millions more will realize what they've missed... and what they still may have available, should they desire it.

Millions will turn to Jesus, and it will cost them everything. Revelation warns that those who choose to follow Jesus during this final, last chance God gives them will be executed by the Antichrist and the one world government.

Satan will demand full obedience, and billions will give it, while millions will give their lives to follow Jesus.

There's much more to say about this topic, and we'll read quite a bit about it through the Scriptures themselves, but there are a few things to ponder:

1. How did the Bible so accurately predict a worldwide totalitarian government 2,000 years before the entire world was even known? No empire, even at its peak, was ever a "worldwide" government, yet today, such a government seems more likely with every passing day.

2. If this is true, what else did the Bible get right?

3. What is keeping me from choosing to follow Jesus?

That last question is the most important of all, and one worthy of serious contemplation. I said before that I'm not in the "convincing" game, because all of that needs to happen between you and God.

Something to think about, though. People sometimes think, "Well, this is interesting. If I see something like the Rapture take place, well good. I'll know it's true and I'll follow Jesus then." You might... or you might just be deceived at that time. Remember, Satan is the father of lies. He's the master deceiver, and you might find something so attractive and so enticing that comes your way in that post-Rapture world that you don't quite ever get around to pursuing Jesus.

Maybe your particular vice just got that much easier to enjoy, discreetly and without any judgment whatsoever. Maybe you find yourself in a great financial situation... who knows?

Conversely, you might also find yourself on the victim end of things, and sadly never have the chance to revisit your beliefs. Millions will die during massive wars and famines.

Finally, God is very clear that, while He lets Satan do his thing for a brief period, and while He extends his mercy to man for one more chance to choose Him, He will also pour out His wrath upon the earth during that time, and the worldwide suffering will be without comparison. Men and women will know that the calamities come from God, and will curse Him for it.

The point is, while millions will come to know Jesus during this time, and at the cost of their lives, many more will never again have the opportunity to choose Him.

All I can say is that following Jesus has been pure joy, and there's nothing remotely like it on earth.

 

[ETNVol]

Excellent work, Catfish, I need to catch up reading on all you've posted in here. The post on Hitler and Satan's throne is chilling, and at the same time, should be a bucket of cold water over the head of non-believers who think this is all nonsense. The German people who witnessed the parades, Hitler's speeches, etc had to be in awe, as if they were witnessing God himself. If they had no witness of God in their souls, it would have been perilously easy to fall into what Hitler was teaching. And the anti-christ, being indwelt by satan, will be far more powerful, more convincing, more charming, everything the world could hope for. Hitler's speeches will pale in comparison.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 mentions a being that will "be taken out of the way". The one who hinders or restrains. It's not us, clearly we can't really do anything of that nature on our own. It's the spirit of God that dwells in believers. There doesn't seem to be any other being in the universe that verse could be referring to. The Holy Spirit, dwelling in believers, restrains the evil that Satan and his hordes would unleash on earth if they were allowed. Much of your post above explains what happens when that God's church and the spirit that dwells in them is removed. The presence of God that protects and keeps this earth until the appointed time will be gone.

But thinking about it logically and in context with the rest of the Bible, we can't make the case that there will be somewhere where God is not. David said whether he fled to heaven or hell, God was there. I've heard people try to make the case that there will be no salvation in Daniel's 70th week, because the spirit of God is no longer here to allow them to be saved. But the holy spirit can't be gone, that's an impossibility, and Revelation makes it plain that many will come to Christ in that terrible time. So what happens? My own belief, and I think it's biblical though I cannot prove it all, is that the holy spirit will not indwell believers in the manner he does now. He will still be here, but his "office" as restrainer will be ended. Instead of working in and through believers as he has since Pentecost, he will then only work alongside them, as he did in the OT times.

Edit: meant to add, Hitler, as a pre-cursor to the anti-Christ, tried to destroy the jews. The anti-Christ will do the same. The hatred shown the jews by their neighbors, by the evil German regime of nearly 100 years ago, most of mankind throughout the last 2000 years, should tell us that the notion the jews who are there now are fake jews is a load of nonsense. The world is and will remain focused on Jerusalem until the end of time and beyond.

In any event, great, interesting posts.

 

[Old Glory]

Man I LOVE the amount of time and detail you and others in this this put into these posts. I do have some questions, I’m still a new believer and have not read much of the Bible yet and don’t know much about anything.

At the Rapture, do we go to Heaven? You said Jesus calls us but where does he call us to? If not,

Are we “done” at that point as believers and are now living in Heaven or do we come back with Jesus at the end time to fight alongside him?

Thanks again for the time put into these.

 

[noleology]

and very good resource

https://www.lesfeldick.org/index.html

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

Continued from above...

Be honest for just a moment. Think about all the terrible things you (we, as I am right in this group) have ever consumed for entertainment. We are a debauched people, and becoming more so every day.

With the Christians "and their annoying, 'oh, I'm so much better than you' out of date morality" out of the way, what terrible changes will fall upon our global society?

Think about how rapidly we have become the most narcissistic, bloodthirsty, lustful generation, especially as compared to just 20 years ago. With the Christians gone, the words of Aleister Crowley will be lived in high definition - "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

Drag queen story time, 3578 pronouns, making heroes of the wicked and wicked of the heroes, hardcore drug addiction, murder in the streets, all sex with all people at all times - those are just the beginning. With the Christians gone, the senses will rule the masses, and the circus masters will give them everything their senses could ever desire... for a time.

The final totalitarian trap will be set, and then it will be sprung. Intoxication will give way to total domination as the world buckles under its new Satanic master.

There will be hope, though. The Bible teaches that, during this time, there will be a massive worldwide spiritual awakening. Though billions will likely still reject Jesus as Lord, millions more will realize what they've missed... and what they still may have available, should they desire it.

Millions will turn to Jesus, and it will cost them everything. Revelation warns that those who choose to follow Jesus during this final, last chance God gives them will be executed by the Antichrist and the one world government.

Satan will demand full obedience, and billions will give it, while millions will give their lives to follow Jesus.

There's much more to say about this topic, and we'll read quite a bit about it through the Scriptures themselves, but there are a few things to ponder:

1. How did the Bible so accurately predict a worldwide totalitarian government 2,000 years before the entire world was even known? No empire, even at its peak, was ever a "worldwide" government, yet today, such a government seems more likely with every passing day.

2. If this is true, what else did the Bible get right?

3. What is keeping me from choosing to follow Jesus?

That last question is the most important of all, and one worthy of serious contemplation. I said before that I'm not in the "convincing" game, because all of that needs to happen between you and God.

Something to think about, though. People sometimes think, "Well, this is interesting. If I see something like the Rapture take place, well good. I'll know it's true and I'll follow Jesus then." You might... or you might just be deceived at that time. Remember, Satan is the father of lies. He's the master deceiver, and you might find something so attractive and so enticing that comes your way in that post-Rapture world that you don't quite ever get around to pursuing Jesus.

Maybe your particular vice just got that much easier to enjoy, discreetly and without any judgment whatsoever. Maybe you find yourself in a great financial situation... who knows?

Conversely, you might also find yourself on the victim end of things, and sadly never have the chance to revisit your beliefs. Millions will die during massive wars and famines.

Finally, God is very clear that, while He lets Satan do his thing for a brief period, and while He extends his mercy to man for one more chance to choose Him, He will also pour out His wrath upon the earth during that time, and the worldwide suffering will be without comparison. Men and women will know that the calamities come from God, and will curse Him for it.

The point is, while millions will come to know Jesus during this time, and at the cost of their lives, many more will never again have the opportunity to choose Him.

All I can say is that following Jesus has been pure joy, and there's nothing remotely like it on earth.

amen brother

 

[catfishpunter]

Excellent work, Catfish, I need to catch up reading on all you've posted in here. The post on Hitler and Satan's throne is chilling, and at the same time, should be a bucket of cold water over the head of non-believers who think this is all nonsense. The German people who witnessed the parades, Hitler's speeches, etc had to be in awe, as if they were witnessing God himself. If they had no witness of God in their souls, it would have been perilously easy to fall into what Hitler was teaching. And the anti-christ, being indwelt by satan, will be far more powerful, more convincing, more charming, everything the world could hope for. Hitler's speeches will pale in comparison.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 mentions a being that will "be taken out of the way". The one who hinders or restrains. It's not us, clearly we can't really do anything of that nature on our own. It's the spirit of God that dwells in believers. There doesn't seem to be any other being in the universe that verse could be referring to. The Holy Spirit, dwelling in believers, restrains the evil that Satan and his hordes would unleash on earth if they were allowed. Much of your post above explains what happens when that God's church and the spirit that dwells in them is removed. The presence of God that protects and keeps this earth until the appointed time will be gone.

But thinking about it logically and in context with the rest of the Bible, we can't make the case that there will be somewhere where God is not. David said whether he fled to heaven or hell, God was there. I've heard people try to make the case that there will be no salvation in Daniel's 70th week, because the spirit of God is no longer here to allow them to be saved. But the holy spirit can't be gone, that's an impossibility, and Revelation makes it plain that many will come to Christ in that terrible time. So what happens? My own belief, and I think it's biblical though I cannot prove it all, is that the holy spirit will not indwell believers in the manner he does now. He will still be here, but his "office" as restrainer will be ended. Instead of working in and through believers as he has since Pentecost, he will then only work alongside them, as he did in the OT times.

Edit: meant to add, Hitler, as a pre-cursor to the anti-Christ, tried to destroy the jews. The anti-Christ will do the same. The hatred shown the jews by their neighbors, by the evil German regime of nearly 100 years ago, most of mankind throughout the last 2000 years, should tell us that the notion the jews who are there now are fake jews is a load of nonsense. The world is and will remain focused on Jerusalem until the end of time and beyond.

In any event, great, interesting posts.

I love every bit of this post. You drop some great knowledge on this board - keep it coming.

Yeah, I thought about how to reference the work of the Holy Spirit in that last post, and thought it would be better broken out on its own. Your comments worked out perfectly in that regard.

Thanks for bringing in the second letter Paul wrote to the Church in Thessalonica. In it, he's reminding them of a bunch of things he taught them when they were together, particularly wanting to help them understand that the end of the world will be very apparent when it comes.

He reminds them that it will be marked by the rise of a lawless, godless man who is empowered by Satan - the Antichrist. He'll get a short run on the earth, during which time he will be incredibly convincing, especially because God Himself will allow people to be deluded by the Antichrist. Like I said in my last post, while there will be a revival in the end, it will not happen for most.

"And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." [2 Thess 2:6-11]

It mentions a couple times that there is a "He" who is currently restraining the Antichrist's rise. That message was written almost 2,000 years ago.

Some personal, spiritual being has been holding back the rise of the Antichrist for nearly 2,000 years. Why hasn't the Antichrist taken over the world yet? Because God hasn't let him. God has had tremendous mercy on us by holding back the Antichrist for this time.

Does it mean that there's one, quasi-immortal, vampire-like guy who has been hanging out for 2,000 years, waiting to wreck the place? Could be, but more likely, it means that the "spirit of lawlessness" that will indwell the Antichrist has risen up in many men over the centuries, but they have been limited in their freedom to realize Satan's goal of a one world system devoted entirely to him.

At some point, when "He who now restrains" is taken out of the world, the spirit of lawlessness will be free to run its full course.

To your point - who is "He who now restrains?" There are a couple possibilities. It could refer to a powerful angel who is at work restraining this evil. Satan's peer is not God. They are not involved in some dualistic struggle of equals, fighting over the destiny of the universe. God is supreme - He created Satan, though Satan chose his own path of evil and rebellion.

Satan's peers are other powerful angels, any of whom can dominate Satan at God's command. We see that in Revelation 20, when a powerful angel comes and binds Satan.

When it comes to defeating Satan, there is no challenge in the matter for God. There is no one like God.

So, it could be that there is an angel in the world whose mission has been to restrict the activities of Satan. Empowered by God, that angel has been doing so for 2,000 years.

Your interpretation, however, is one that I tend to agree with, which is that the Holy Spirit Himself is restraining Satan.

Here's why - the Holy Spirit, being God Himself, is able to be and act in all places. Angels are not such. They are limited to the space their personal being inhabits. In other words, we see examples of angels traveling from one place to another, but not being everywhere all at once as God is.

We see no other being in Scripture who is able to act in all places at all times except for God. I surmise that the effort of worldwide restraint is thus the work of God Himself, rather than something assigned to an angel.

I could, however, be completely wrong.

That makes for the point you raise above. Believers in Jesus are granted a special gift - the Holy Spirit of God comes to live in us. I don't know about you, but for me, that has been a tremendous source of peace and inspiration. The Holy Spirit guides us, corrects us, points us to God, and empowers us to live a life of sacrificial love, even when it costs us dearly.

When those believers are called to be with the Lord, and it happens to all of us at once, the influence of the Holy Spirit as expressed through the Church seems to cease. That is, again, a conclusion based on the overall reading of Scripture and then my own guess about what happens next, but one which may be completely wrong.

You bring up a great point, which is that some people believe that this signifies the end of salvation. Scripture doesn't point to that, though. Revelation is very clear that, through the ministry of special witnesses sent to serve during the seven year tribulation, multitudes will turn to Jesus (though, as a reminder, most will refuse Him).

The more general question they raise is whether salvation can occur without the subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Yes it can, as far as we can tell. The man who was crucified next to Jesus and, in his dying hours, turned to Jesus for mercy, was promised that he would be with Jesus in paradise. There is no record that the Holy Spirit indwelt that man in the few remaining hours he had in this life. That special gift did not come to the earth until 50 days later, when the Church received the power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (found in Acts 1).

That said, Scripture also makes it clear that the Holy Spirit has the work of calling people to choose Jesus, and that ministry does appear to be required for anyone to come to salvation. God has, is and will continue to call people to Himself until the window of opportunity is forever sealed.

Where does that leave us regarding the role of the Holy Spirit after the Rapture? You wrote the following, and it's funny - I've never brought this up with anyone other than my wife, but it's exactly what I think as well:

So what happens? My own belief, and I think it's biblical though I cannot prove it all, is that the holy spirit will not indwell believers in the manner he does now. He will still be here, but his "office" as restrainer will be ended. Instead of working in and through believers as he has since Pentecost, he will then only work alongside them, as he did in the OT times.

Who knows, though? I certainly hope and pray that believers in the tribulation will have the benefit of the power of the Holy Spirit, but I also know that God's divine plan is far better than anything I could devise, so I'll trust Him with whatever He has planned for us all.

 

[ttyh]

Can't believe I just now discovered this thread. Looking forward to reading through it in great detail.

 

[catfishpunter]

Man I LOVE the amount of time and detail you and others in this this put into these posts. I do have some questions, I’m still a new believer and have not read much of the Bible yet and don’t know much about anything.

At the Rapture, do we go to Heaven? You said Jesus calls us but where does he call us to? If not,

Are we “done” at that point as believers and are now living in Heaven or do we come back with Jesus at the end time to fight alongside him?

Thanks again for the time put into these.

Those are such great questions, and I'm so glad to hear that you've decided to follow Jesus. I hope that you have found a great church and equally great mentorship. The last thing Jesus said to His followers as He left the earth was for us to "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” [Matt 28:19-20]

We are all called to be disciples, which means that we are to be students of Jesus who become more like Him as we follow Him. Commit yourself to knowing Him, and He will continue to change your life and reveal more of Himself to you. Please feel free to reach out with any questions, and I know that there are several of us on here who would be glad to do what we can to point you to answers in God's Word.

Now, to your question - where do we go when we're called?

This is a subject that is addressed in a few places in the New Testament. I'll start by showing you the answer Paul gave to his friends and students at the Church in Thessalonica. He starts off by talking to them about the destiny of Christians who have died - "those who are asleep."

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words." [1 Thess 4:13-18]

When Jesus calls, it will be apparent. We will all go to meet Him.

There are a couple mainstream views among Christians. One is that He will come to call us before all of this trouble and tribulation happens on the earth. That is called the "pre-tribulation" view, and it's the one to which I personally subscribe. There is a lot of Scriptural support for that view, and I think it's the most likely scenario.

The way that plays out is that we are called by Jesus and we return with Him to Heaven, where we enjoy His company and celebrate together during the seven years of trouble on the earth.

Another mainstream view is the "post-tribulation" view, which is that Jesus calls us after the seven year period of tribulation on the earth. At that point, we go to meet Him in the air... and then immediately come back to earth.

At the end of the tribulation, Jesus does come back to earth, boldly and publicly, at which time He defeats the Antichrist by simply speaking. An angel binds Satan, and Jesus rules the earth for 1,000 years. We rule with Him.

The few people who survive the tribulation intact and make it to Jesus's second coming now get to enjoy 1,000 years of the earth being run exactly as God intended. The Old and New Testaments both have prophetic pictures of what that time will look like. It will be amazing. This period is commonly referred to as "The Millennium."

At the end of that 1,000 years, Satan will be released for a brief period. Once again, people around the world who have had the full benefit of living under Jesus yet who chose not to follow Him will be deceived by Satan and rise up in rebellion against Jesus. They will be defeated in an instant, and Satan will be cast into Hell for eternity.

At that point, the heavens and the earth will be destroyed, and all who refused the grace of Jesus and preferred to be judged according to their own merits will have that horrible opportunity. They will each stand before God and be judged on their works. Unfortunately, exactly zero people who have chosen that strategy will succeed, as the penalty for all sin is death, and Jesus is the only one who can pay for sin, which He did through His death on the cross.

Anyone who chose not to take Jesus's free gift of life will thus receive their guilty verdict and face eternal punishment in Hell as well.

There's no way to sugarcoat that or make it less offensive. Defying a being of infinite worth and goodness carries with it infinite consequence.

After judgment, God will create a new heavens and a new earth, where we will all live with Him for all eternity.


Here's a brief overview to sum it up:

Pre-Tribulation
- The Rapture occurs without warning, and believers join Jesus in Heaven
- The earth undergoes seven years of unmatched tribulation
- Jesus returns with all believers, and the Antichrist is defeated and Satan bound
- Jesus rules the earth in peace for 1,000 years with all believers at His side
- Satan is released and stirs up one final rebellion, which is finished in an instant, with Satan thrown into Hell for all eternity
- The heavens and the earth vanish
- All people who chose not to follow Jesus are judged according to their works and sent to punishment
- God creates a new heavens and earth, where we live with Him for eternity

Post-Tribulation
- The earth undergoes seven years of unmatched tribulation
- Jesus returns and summons all believers, who meet Him in the clouds and then immediately return to earth
- The Antichrist is defeated and Satan bound
- Jesus rules the earth in peace for 1,000 years with all believers at His side
- Satan is released and stirs up one final rebellion, which is finished in an instant, with Satan thrown into Hell for all eternity
- The heavens and the earth vanish
- All people who chose not to follow Jesus are judged according to their works and sent to punishment
- God creates a new heavens and earth, where we live with Him for eternity

 

[ttyh]

My brother, I'm only two of your posts into this thread and feel a renewed sense of faith and a general sense of calm and reassurance that we are living God's plan and He is in control. I've always known this in the depths of my conscience, but sometimes you need to be reminded.

I've always been Christian and was a practicing Catholic from early youth years until I started at Texas when I was 18. Although I remain Christian to this day in my faith, I strayed off the path of practicing Catholocism and became the Easter and Christmas mass attendee over roughly the past 30 years.

I was Jesuit educated in high school so I have a decent foundation to build upon here and your style is helping me get in touch with that knowledge and those feelings all these years later.

Many thanks for doing this and I'm really excited to continue studying this thread and any other resources that might be referenced. It's time to knock the dust off my Bible.

 

[ETNVol]

Man I LOVE the amount of time and detail you and others in this this put into these posts. I do have some questions, I’m still a new believer and have not read much of the Bible yet and don’t know much about anything.

At the Rapture, do we go to Heaven? You said Jesus calls us but where does he call us to? If not,

Are we “done” at that point as believers and are now living in Heaven or do we come back with Jesus at the end time to fight alongside him?

Thanks again for the time put into these.

IMO, he calls us to Jerusalem, first. We're told he will appear in the clouds. As great as it would be for me, it won't be in East TN, it'll be over Jerusalem. Jerusalem is and will be the epicenter of everything.

The Bible tells us we'll be almost instantly changed, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye". We'll be transported to him, and yes, then to Heaven, while at the same time, we'll be changed into a body that's perfect0. It will be an event that will shake the foundations of the world so it will never be the same again.

I think it's clear that all believers will return with Christ at the 2nd coming. The Bible says believers will "rule and reign" with him. So, yes, we will come back to earth after the Tribulation is over. I believe that we'll all assist Christ as he rules the earth for 1000 years, in what capacity, I can only guess.

Keep in mind, after Christ had his glorified body, he could appear where he chose at will. Since we'll be like him, now perfected and able to be in the presence of the father, we'll have access to both Heaven and earth. He could appear with the disciples in Jerusalem, then later appeared to them in Galilee, where he cooked and shared with them a meal. During the Millennium, God the father will remain on his throne in heaven. God the son will reign on his throne in Jerusalem. As you'll be perfect, you'll have the privilege to be in the presence of both.

I don't think you'll every be "done" and sit on a cloud and eat grapes and strum a harp. I think - for lack of a better term - we'll all have a job, both in the millennial kingdom and in the eternal state. A perfect job that glorifies God and fulfills you in a way that nothing in this life ever could.

 

[catfishpunter]

My brother, I'm only two of your posts into this thread and feel a renewed sense of faith and a general sense of calm and reassurance that we are living God's plan and He is in control. I've always known this in the depths of my conscience, but sometimes you need to be reminded.

I've always been Christian and was a practicing Catholic from early youth years until I started at Texas when I was 18. Although I remain Christian to this day in my faith, I strayed off the path of practicing Catholocism and became the Easter and Christmas mass attendee over roughly the past 30 years.

I was Jesuit educated in high school so I have a decent foundation to build upon here and your style is helping me get in touch with that knowledge and those feelings all these years later.

Many thanks for doing this and I'm really excited to continue studying this thread and any other resources that might be referenced. It's time to knock the dust off my Bible.

I'm so glad to hear all of this. If this helps you see Jesus more clearly, perfect. I hope that, by the end of this, whoever is reading this forgets who wrote all of this, and I'm sure @ETNVol and @Hoosier in Mad Town and any other contributor on here would feel the same. Just know Him, and that's all that matters.

Where do you think you'll start when you start reading your Bible again?

I don't want to be presumptuous, but it often seems that when we grow up in a Christian home and then take some time off in early adulthood, we need to really revisit the foundations of the faith of our childhood to make sure we really understood it all correctly and personally.

I can't speak for the Catholic experience, but that's pretty common for Protestants. Someone will grow up and be pretty active in the church and then drift off during college, and finally reconnect with their faith when they have a young family.

When folks do decide to engage on their own, sometimes they take a hard look and realize that they may not have fully understood the Gospel as a young person, or that they might have taken part in church activities but never actually surrendered their own life to Jesus. That's so common.

I love that you see it as "knocking the dust off." It's like taking an old car out that hasn't been driven for a long time. We pull the cover off and give it a detailed inspection, making sure that everything's in good working order, and fixing anything that isn't. I'd recommend that initial "once over" with your faith, so that you've got a certain foundation that you can build on and enjoy for the rest of your life.

I talked with a guy recently who had a similar background - away from church for a long time, then back in the faith. We had a great discussion. These are some questions we talked about, and ones I'd think about, which might identify some areas that are in great shape in your faith and others that might need a little thoughtful consideration.

1. People call Jesus their "Savior." Why do I need a Savior?
2. Who do I believe Jesus is?
3. How can I be sure that I'm right with God and can spend forever with Him?

You can find the answers to all of those questions in the book of Romans, which I'd highly recommend. It is a challenging read, but it lays out clearly the case for salvation through faith in Jesus, and the futility of trying to do anything on our own to try and merit God's favor (as if we could somehow improve upon or add to the infinitely valuable sacrifice of the holy and perfect Son of God dying on our behalf). I have read it a number of times, and find it a great message for clearing up my own thinking, which can get cloudy.

Also, if you've got any thoughts or questions - keep 'em coming!

 

[catfishpunter]

Up next... Saddam and his failed attempt to relive biblical infamy.

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

I'm so glad to hear all of this. If this helps you see Jesus more clearly, perfect. I hope that, by the end of this, whoever is reading this forgets who wrote all of this, and I'm sure @ETNVol and @Hoosier in Mad Town and any other contributor on here would feel the same. Just know Him, and that's all that matters.

Where do you think you'll start when you start reading your Bible again?

I don't want to be presumptuous, but it often seems that when we grow up in a Christian home and then take some time off in early adulthood, we need to really revisit the foundations of the faith of our childhood to make sure we really understood it all correctly and personally.

I can't speak for the Catholic experience, but that's pretty common for Protestants. Someone will grow up and be pretty active in the church and then drift off during college, and finally reconnect with their faith when they have a young family.

When folks do decide to engage on their own, sometimes they take a hard look and realize that they may not have fully understood the Gospel as a young person, or that they might have taken part in church activities but never actually surrendered their own life to Jesus. That's so common.

I love that you see it as "knocking the dust off." It's like taking an old car out that hasn't been driven for a long time. We pull the cover off and give it a detailed inspection, making sure that everything's in good working order, and fixing anything that isn't. I'd recommend that initial "once over" with your faith, so that you've got a certain foundation that you can build on and enjoy for the rest of your life.

I talked with a guy recently who had a similar background - away from church for a long time, then back in the faith. We had a great discussion. These are some questions we talked about, and ones I'd think about, which might identify some areas that are in great shape in your faith and others that might need a little thoughtful consideration.

1. People call Jesus their "Savior." Why do I need a Savior?
2. Who do I believe Jesus is?
3. How can I be sure that I'm right with God and can spend forever with Him?

You can find the answers to all of those questions in the book of Romans, which I'd highly recommend. It is a challenging read, but it lays out clearly the case for salvation through faith in Jesus, and the futility of trying to do anything on our own to try and merit God's favor (as if we could somehow improve upon or add to the infinitely valuable sacrifice of the holy and perfect Son of God dying on our behalf). I have read it a number of times, and find it a great message for clearing up my own thinking, which can get cloudy.

Also, if you've got any thoughts or questions - keep 'em coming!

Great stuff.

I’ll add a few things and be a bit direct here as I don’t think sugar coating it does anyone much good.

1. What does it mean to have a relationship with Jesus? Do you simply pray to Him? Do you read his Word (almost daily)? Do you known what he is doing in your life right now, how he is pruning you, and are you compelled to talk to others about Him? If the answer is “no” to any of those, I would have a strong look in the mirror before answering the question re: relationship.

2. Are you obedient to Jesus as Lord, not simply as your savior? Jesus is Lord AND Savior. That means he not only saves us from Gods justifiable wrath against our sin, but we also have to bow to Him in obedience. Do you know what Jesus commands you to do? Do you follow every aspect of that or pick and choose what is convenient? Do you make the decisions in your life based on Jesus’ desired and not yours? When you fall short of this, do you repent? If the answer is “no” to these questions, I wound take a hard look in the mirror when determining if you have actually submitted to Jesus as your Lord in addition to Savior.

 

[Old Glory]

Those are such great questions, and I'm so glad to hear that you've decided to follow Jesus. I hope that you have found a great church and equally great mentorship. The last thing Jesus said to His followers as He left the earth was for us to "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” [Matt 28:19-20]

I have not found a church yet. My wife and I have a three year and a one month old so getting out anywhere just doesn't really happen right now. I know many have online live streams but that seems almost harder to make at times because the three year old doesn't know you're trying to pay attention to something.

A guy I work with (whom I've tried to get to join here) has a ton of experience with Jesus and the Bible so I talk to him a couple times a week with questions, ideas, etc. I actually joked with him that you were him because he was reading Revelation when you started this thread. I would consider him an unofficial mentor.

Great stuff.

I’ll add a few things and be a bit direct here as I don’t think sugar coating it does anyone much good.

1. What does it mean to have a relationship with Jesus? Do you simply pray to Him? Do you read his Word (almost daily)? Do you known what he is doing in your life right now, how he is pruning you, and are you compelled to talk to others about Him? If the answer is “no” to any of those, I would have a strong look in the mirror before answering the question re: relationship.

2. Are you obedient to Jesus as Lord, not simply as your savior? Jesus is Lord AND Savior. That means he not only saves us from Gods justifiable wrath against our sin, but we also have to bow to Him in obedience. Do you know what Jesus commands you to do? Do you follow every aspect of that or pick and choose what is convenient? Do you make the decisions in your life based on Jesus’ desired and not yours? When you fall short of this, do you repent? If the answer is “no” to these questions, I wound take a hard look in the mirror when determining if you have actually submitted to Jesus as your Lord in addition to Savior.

1. I don't read daily. I'm probably just making an excuse but free time is in short supply right now and there isn't much alone time anymore. I don't like to do things half-assed so I feel that if I not able to give 100% attention on what I'm doing (reading the bible, praying, etc.), I feel like it's almost worse than not doing it at all (if that makes sense).

2. I think this could also apply to question one but I don't know what it means to do that or where to start. Do I start reading the Bible in Genesis (I'm part way through right now) or do I skip around to get a clearer picture of the answers to your questions, among others I'm sure I'll find along the way? I would say my answer is no to just about all of them but again I'm not sure where to begin.

I was so excited when this thread was made, I want to learn more because I'm like Jon Snow right now, I know nothing.

 

[WestcampTX]

This thread is fascinating, thanks for doing it. The nazi stuff blows my mind, I had no idea about the temple. Seems Indiana Jones wasn’t far off from real life.

 

[ETNVol]

This thread is fascinating, thanks for doing it. The nazi stuff blows my mind, I had no idea about the temple. Seems Indiana Jones wasn’t far off from real life.

That part of the movies was dead on. Hitler was heavily into the occult.