The Truth

[MalO]

You seem to not understand how jobs work.


If flipping burgers is seen as a lifetime career, it's only because those people aren't trying hard enough.

Too many just want shit handed to them, as opposed to putting forth effort and determinization to make something better for themselves.

You don't seem to understand how fucking bad our economy is right now.

Like many rich and privileged people, you have your head up in the clouds and can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[Joe King]

That's crony capitalist talk.

No, it is not. It is fair talk. We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of government, but that can't happen if we all pay a different price for government. We get what we have today. Where the big dogs expect (and are usually given) better access to government. What we need is a system where people like Bill Gates have no better access to gov than you or I do.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

Every job that pays a wage should pay a living wage.

There is no "entry level jobs for teenagers"

If the employer thinks a job isn't worth paying a living wage, the employer should get off his lazy fat ass and do that job himself. The rich fatass can keep doing it himself until he is willing to pay a living wage to someone else so they can do it.

Personally I think the point should be driven home with torches and pitchforks.

What is a living wage? Please define it.

Is it just affording to have a roof over your head, clothing, and food?

Does it include having a car, and paying its insurance and fuel? (Not required for living as it is a liability)

How about cable TV on a 65Inch TV? (another liability)

The latest cell phone? (another liability) Do you see where I'm going with this?

Every county in the US is different, not all have the same costs for land or housing or fuel or pay or, etc?



Or does it come down to being able to comprehend money and controlling ones debt?

A job is a choice, one can always become self-employed. You do understand that a $15 wage isn't what the employer pays, the employer pays about $18 to $20 for that $15 employee due to state and federal taxes that the employer pays above what is deducted from the wage of the employee. The job provider is offering a position to someone for a price that the employer can afford to pay, they can either take it or leave it.

It is not the responsibility of the government to provide jobs or to even create jobs, the govt doesn't have that authority nor does it have that power. Yet, the govt does like to destroy jobs due to strict regulations. Some regulation is needed, but many are over regulated and push for business to move their company overseas, which is what began happening in the late 70's under Carter. Unstable money markets are having effects now along with high rates of taxes. The rest is supply and demand.


So I ask again, define what is a living wage?

 

[Liquid Reigns]

I'm proposing to take the laborer off the street and have them learn transferable skills. I'm proposing to allow employers to take advantage of the foreign laborers, but pay so much in taxes that we can afford to keep up the non-working Americans. If you have 100 people to pick from but, 80 of them will cost you in higher taxes versus better pay for the American worker, it's pretty simple which way you will go.

What makes you think a business won't just up and leave the US?

 

[TheResister]

Not at all. People gaining experience and finding a better job is how it is supposed to work.


So? The answer to to have employers have to compete for workers.


Of course there are always some jobs available, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. Because if you can't even pay to get a job, that would prove your first statement wrong.



I agree, all that needs to go.
...but the truth is, virtually everyone has taken action that causes themselves to become liable for those taxes. If you volunteer to pay, then pay you must. Had the masses not fallen all over themselves to volunteer for it, and demanded the gov to adhere to Constitutional limitations on power, all those things would have never been necessary. It's past generations that have fucked us over.



To understand what the real problem is, requires the studying of history. How many you see wanting to do that?





Who is gonna pay to do that? Why not just let them learn their own skills by starting at the bottom and working their way up?

Of course that won't work if people think they should be able to stay in the same low pay entry level job all their lives and still be able to keep up with the Joneses. There has never been a time that that works.



How 'bout we just get rid of the foreign labor and have companies compete for American workers?


Those taxes will just get passed along in the form of higher prices and/or lower quality goods and services for their customers. Which fuels inflation. Which means that's not a good idea.

OMG! Really dude? Let's try this one more time:

1) Because we've created the welfare state and paid people not to work; because the breakup up of the American family has left women in charge that don't want their "babies" to work; because welfare pays more than working, NOBODY is motivated to go out there and get a job.

Furthermore, people don't start at the bottom, learn a company and move up. You start out with the education and the skills OR you don't get the job. I'm proposing to change that dynamic

2) Employers are NEVER going to have to compete for workers in the United States. Currently the Republicans are negotiating with the Dems to allow 5,000 migrants come in and look for work here PER DAY! You have to get tuned in to the real world

3) When employers can avoid taxes by doing the things I discussed, they will pay very little in taxes. There is no tax to pass on since they create their incentives by hiring Americans, paying them a decent wage and bringing jobs to the U.S. Did you even READ what I wrote?

4) I'm not contradicting myself. Do you know what satire is? Nobody would spend $5 an hour to buy a job that pays $2 an hour. For many workers that is the way it is because people don't know how to be entrepreneurs; big business has created a lot of regulations trying to force the little guy out of business making independent workers a rarity; the blue collar worker is being mollycoddled by their mommy and the welfare state

5) I agree that people vote for the taxes that enslave them. We can't always blame the past. The Republicans wanted the income tax and the IRS. We almost got rid of it. Then 9 / 11 happened. After that the right found a reason to keep the Socialist Surveillance Number ... ooops, "Social Security Number" and jump on the National ID bandwagon where they now double down on the POLICE STATE and support of it. Let's start talking about the here and NOW

6) Yeah, I concede that the overwhelming majority do not want to study history. Neither will 99 percent of the people feel so inclined to work in think tanks developing new ides for the brain dead idiots we call politicians. But those ideas begin SOMEWHERE. Did you know that the so - called "Patriot Act" was actually written by a Vietnamese? AND to add insult to injury, Joe Biden wrote the precursor to the so - called "Patriot Act:"

1996: Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act

Joe Biden was a key player in writing the precursor to the Patriot Act over the objections of civil liberties advocates.

theintercept.com

My point? The reclaiming of Liberty will not begin with snake oil salesmen in Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption. It will be hashed out by people that do more than bitch about the situation. You can visit sites and argue with people and be entertained by people trolling each other, calling each other names OR you can DO something

7) We are not going to get rid of foreign workers without an internal civil war. Which one of the guys on this board do you trust in a foxhole? My ideas LOWER taxes below that of any time in history since the Federal Reserve was brought into existence. That you cannot understand that I'm proposing to motivate business to hire Americans, pay decent wages and turn out quality products shows that you are more into arguing than developing out of the box solutions that aren't approved by the MSM. Get beyond the talking points. Ask relevant questions. Participate in think tank discussions and rather than criticize, show an example of how making business earn their tax cuts is a bad policy.

Finally, I recall when fast food workers went on strike once. They were making $7.50 an hour. They demanded $10 an hour. It was calculated that by raising each meal by 15 cents the business could meet the demand. They didn't do it voluntarily. They had to be motivated, but the Republicans didn't make them EARN their tax cuts.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

No I'm a capitalist. However I'm not a crony capitalist, which it seems a lot of people on this forum are.

Crony Capitalism is indistinguishable from Communism and totalitarianism. On paper they are different, but look at the end result:

"Free Market" Capitalism: People are free to earn money for their product or labor, and have equal representation in a society that doesn't distinguish between an upper class aristocracy or lower class peasantry. The economy is decentralized because most products and services are produced by individual business owners rather than a corporate or government run entity.

Crony Capitalism: Rich business owners dominate the market by a combination of cut-throat business practices that drive small business owners out of business, corporate lobbying which is just another word for political bribery to get unfair business laws passed in their favor, and the ability to hire more lawyers than the small people so they can win court cases and get all sorts of exemptions when they file their taxes and pay less tax than anyone else, especially those poor people.

Because big businesses have so much influence over government, and posses so much wealth compared to everyone else in the economy, they make most of the planning decisions. This means Crony Capitalist economies are centrally planned for the most part. This effectively creates a class-based society where the rich have more representation, wealth, and privileges than everyone else in society.

Fun fact: Donald Trump paid $750 in income tax for 2017. I paid more than that in income tax in 2017. Donald Trump is a billionaire who owns more than 500 businesses. I am not and don't own even one. This is why I advocate a flat income tax. Everyone who earns any amount of income should pay 15% with no exemptions and no possibility for deductions, no matter who you are, who you know, or how many lawyers you employ.

Communism: The government dictates the prices of goods and services, and what people earn for wages. This means the economy is centralized (Communism is commonly referred to as a centrally planned economy). On paper this is supposed to benefit the people. In reality the party leaders who run the government become the new aristocracy and are the wealthiest members of society. Since these party leaders wield all legislative, judicial, and miltiary power no one is able to stop them. This is why Communism always ends up looking like a dicatatorship.

Totalitarianism: One guy wields all the military power and kills anyone who disagrees. He gets all the money and makes all the laws and decisions. By its very nature the economy is centrally planned and it certainly is class based. Either you are the dictator or someone he has chosen to wield power, or you are not.

i dont need a fucking class, answer my question.

 

[Liquid Reigns]

No I'm a capitalist. However I'm not a crony capitalist, which it seems a lot of people on this forum are.

Crony Capitalism is indistinguishable from Communism and totalitarianism. On paper they are different, but look at the end result:

"Free Market" Capitalism: People are free to earn money for their product or labor, and have equal representation in a society that doesn't distinguish between an upper class aristocracy or lower class peasantry. The economy is decentralized because most products and services are produced by individual business owners rather than a corporate or government run entity.

Crony Capitalism: Rich business owners dominate the market by a combination of cut-throat business practices that drive small business owners out of business, corporate lobbying which is just another word for political bribery to get unfair business laws passed in their favor, and the ability to hire more lawyers than the small people so they can win court cases and get all sorts of exemptions when they file their taxes and pay less tax than anyone else, especially those poor people.

Because big businesses have so much influence over government, and posses so much wealth compared to everyone else in the economy, they make most of the planning decisions. This means Crony Capitalist economies are centrally planned for the most part. This effectively creates a class-based society where the rich have more representation, wealth, and privileges than everyone else in society.

Fun fact: Donald Trump paid $750 in income tax for 2017. I paid more than that in income tax in 2017. Donald Trump is a billionaire who owns more than 500 businesses. I am not and don't own even one. This is why I advocate a flat income tax. Everyone who earns any amount of income should pay 15% with no exemptions and no possibility for deductions, no matter who you are, who you know, or how many lawyers you employ.

Communism: The government dictates the prices of goods and services, and what people earn for wages. This means the economy is centralized (Communism is commonly referred to as a centrally planned economy). On paper this is supposed to benefit the people. In reality the party leaders who run the government become the new aristocracy and are the wealthiest members of society. Since these party leaders wield all legislative, judicial, and miltiary power no one is able to stop them. This is why Communism always ends up looking like a dicatatorship.

Totalitarianism: One guy wields all the military power and kills anyone who disagrees. He gets all the money and makes all the laws and decisions. By its very nature the economy is centrally planned and it certainly is class based. Either you are the dictator or someone he has chosen to wield power, or you are not.

You don't seem to fully comprehend "capitalism", whether it be "crony" or "free market" (look at Hong Kong, their free market and their "classes of people" living in cage homes: https://search.brave.com/search?q=free+market+hong+kong+cage+people&source=web) , let alone "laissez-faire ".

There is a difference between business taxes and personal taxes, you are failing to distinguish between the two. You also demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the US Tax Code.

If anything the Govt needs to revise the tax laws, yet they won't, as Trump said during his debate with Clinton, because they use those very laws themselves to pay little to no taxes.

A lot of big business buys up the small business. I'm selling my company in the next couple years when I retire, I already have offers from larger companies. Now, have some small business simply folded up due to not being able to compete with larger companies, certainly, but can you point the finger at the larger company if it is the smaller companies actual fault? Mismanaging business and money are the number one reasons for small business failure.

 

[LafesterMacintosh]

 

[Joe King]

it seems like you are a communist or socialist...............so another question:

in this "living wages" world what would your job be?

If I had to guess, I'd say the guy who decides what everyone else should make.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

If I had to guess, I'd say the guy who decides what everyone else should make.

Since they wont answer my question......sure......in their world............but in reality:

The answer is:

You would be doing whatever the state told you to do, for how ever long they deemed nessessary, and compensation would be whatever they wanted. You have a living wage, which is:

housing
food
clothes

and if you are good little rabbit

a car
and some amenities

I can't stand when people think they are so fucking smart, that they think: "If I had control, it would be different"

socialism\communism is great idea, and for the most part it can work, but greed makes it doomed for failure.

What we could do is have two different systems...........divide the country in 2, straight down the middle.......one side gets a living wage and free everything, and the other, free enterprise,........no passage between the two, and see which is better............

weird thing, we already have.

with one consession, I would argue that healthcare and education would be better in a communist system.

I am a partial communist, and partial capitalist.....yes it is possible

 

[CuriousFiend]

View attachment 211311

 

[TheResister]

Since they wont answer my question......sure......in their world............but in reality:

The answer is:

You would be doing whatever the state told you to do, for how ever long they deemed nessessary, and compensation would be whatever they wanted. You have a living wage, which is:

housing
food
clothes

and if you are good little rabbit

a car
and some amenities

I can't stand when people think they are so fucking smart, that they think: "If I had control, it would be different"

socialism\communism is great idea, and for the most part it can work, but greed makes it doomed for failure.

What we could do is have two different systems...........divide the country in 2, straight down the middle.......one side gets a living wage and free everything, and the other, free enterprise,........no passage between the two, and see which is better............

weird thing, we already have.

with one consession, I would argue that healthcare and education would be better in a communist system.

I am a partial communist, and partial capitalist.....yes it is possible

Just because people have better ideas doesn't mean they want control. A lot of people know how to think outside the box, but many won't share their ideas with others because they are familiar with that standard canard that you echo.

I have ideas that I've worked out in think tanks and we don't know they would work; however, they address issues AND I've worked on framing the solution in such a way that the objections to it have been addressed. Furthermore, I took Dr. Deming's course in Total Quality Management back in the 1990s. I know how to slowly implement a change and evaluate it before moving on to the next step.

In addition, as you know, I am on a discussion board that is more of an interactive think tank. The problem is you can't get people to participate. Most like using the Internet for entertainment, not as a tool to help address pressing issues. Having worked in think tanks and seeing people parrot old ideas I developed decades ago makes me realize that it only takes one person to effect changes in the status quo.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Just because people have better ideas

Better? Maybe slightly different, but not better. The OP is suggesting communism and/or socialism, whether they know it or not.

A lot of people know how to think outside the box

Sure they do, and some of those same people should not be thinking much beyond breakfast. Thinkers are great, doers are better. The OP submits "a living wage" for everyone. I ask how does that work? The answer is take from those who have and do and give to those who don't and do not.....there is no other way. There is not much magic in math.

standard canard that you echo

Which is what?


EDIT:
I stated "OP" earlier in this post. That is incorrect, @QuanChi is the OP, and my opinion is in opposition to @MalO. When mentioning the OP earlier, I was referring to @MalO

 

[TheResister]

Better? Maybe slightly different, but not better. The OP is suggesting communism and/or socialism, whether they know it or not.

Sure they do, and some of those same people should not be thinking much beyond breakfast. Thinkers are great, doers are better. The OP submits "a living wage" for everyone. I ask how does that work? The answer is take from those who have and do and give to those who don't and do not.....there is no other way. There is not much magic in math.

Which is what?


EDIT:
I stated "OP" earlier in this post. That is incorrect, @QuanChi is the OP, and my opinion is in opposition to @MalO. When mentioning the OP earlier, I was referring to @MalO

The standard canard:

"I can't stand when people think they are so fucking smart, that they think: "If I had control, it would be different"

I haven't witnessed much that doesn't suggest anything that hasn't already been in existence and failed. Socialism, communism and any other ism that has the people relying solely on the government is going to fail. At the same time the Republicans have degenerated to the point that all they talk about is democracy to the point that they forget we are supposed to living in a Republican Form of Government.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

"I can't stand when people think they are so fucking smart, that they think: "If I had control, it would be different"

but it is true.....

This thought process is dangerous, it keeps bad ideas alive. People lie to themselves too much. If I was the president, I would be corrupt as fuck. And so would you.

 

[TheResister]

but it is true.....

This thought process is dangerous, it keeps bad ideas alive. People lie to themselves too much. If I was the president, I would be corrupt as fuck. And so would you.

You don't understand. I don't want to be in control. I'm satisfied to bring new ideas to the table. I prefer to solve problems. Most solutions are not the brainchild of politicians or presidents. Their concern is power and control. The first order of business for any politician the day they get sworn in is to begin lining up people that will benefit the politician when he or she runs for reelection.

 

[CuriousFiend]

You don't understand. I don't want to be in control. I'm satisfied to bring new ideas to the table. I prefer to solve problems. Most solutions are not the brainchild of politicians or presidents. Their concern is power and control. The first order of business for any politician the day they get sworn in is to begin lining up people that will benefit the politician when he or she runs for reelection.

*Power & *Control.


Isn't it remarkable that these are the foremost terms used in such contexts.

Always assumed politics and government was about fulfilling critical leadership responsibilities for the peoples.

Ya know, like politicians are supposed to bare the collective burdens of responsibility for all the peoples. Their nation of peoples who they serve.

Dunno bout you, or anyone else, but to me this in no way seems accurately definable as merely "Power" or "Control".

Imo leadership is not power.
Leadership is not control.

Those are simply small aspects from the full scope of Leadership Responsibilities.

A True Leader does not want to Lead and does not do so out of self service, but rather does so because he/or she must and only so long as need be.

Spoiler: 👹

What I'm saying is that imo all our governmental systems are essentially set-up as inversions.

Spoiler: Ben Franklin

All citizens of sound mind ought to be required to step up-if randomly selected–and to dutifully serve within their nations primary leadership for a certain period.

(*Obviously no small feat, which would be extremely challenging to establish with the current fucking disastrous state of everything in every nation.)

Spoiler: Ophidian

Ultimately our Leaders should be conscripted, is what I'm suggesting.

Sorta like Jury Duty in a sense.

Spoiler: 👀

The first thing I'd recommend would be entirely removing absolutely all financial incentives.

Spoiler: $h$e$k$e$l$

Since failing removal of this one corrupted piece of the existing corrupted whole would mean fixing the problem remains a relative impossibility.

Spoiler: Eye See - t

 

[weaponoffreedom]

You don't understand. I don't want to be in control. I'm satisfied to bring new ideas to the table. I prefer to solve problems. Most solutions are not the brainchild of politicians or presidents. Their concern is power and control. The first order of business for any politician the day they get sworn in is to begin lining up people that will benefit the politician when he or she runs for reelection.

I understand 100%.