"of nature and natures God"

[weaponoffreedom]

Why, in the American Declaration of Independence, does it "laws of nature and nature's God" Why the contrast?

 

[Joe Kings]

Ahh youre one of those people...

You seriously cant make sense of that? It seems pretty easy to make sense of. Not a contradiction at all.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

one of what kind of people?

 

[Timothy]

the laws of nature dictate that the strong kill the weak.

the laws of nature's God say you should not kill

duh

 

[weaponoffreedom]

More specifically, the part of "natures god" why say natures god and not just god?

 

[AgEngDawg]

Why, in the American Declaration of Independence, does it "laws of nature and nature's God" Why the contrast?

 

[American Deplorable]

More specifically, the part of "natures god" why say natures god and not just god?

The Founders recognized that there were different religions and that the country’s origins stem from people being able to practice their religions how they want.

 

[AgEngDawg]

The Founders recognized that there were different religions and that the country’s origins stem from people being able to practice their religions how they want.

When the founders talked about different religions, the founders meant different forms of Christianity.

 

[American Deplorable]

When the founders talked about different religions, the founders meant different forms of Christianity.

Generally.

Islam, as much as I hate those camel fuckers, was acknowledged and accepted, as well.

Were the Founding Fathers "Tolerant" of Islam? [Part I] - Apologetics Press

[Editor’s Note: This article is the first installment of a two-part critique of an article written by James Hutson, Library of Congress Manuscript Division Chief, on the Founding Fathers’ attitude toward Islam.] One prominent misconception pertaining to the liberty envisioned by the Founding...

apologeticspress.org

 

[weaponoffreedom]

When the founders talked about different religions, the founders meant different forms of Christianity.

I am not so sure of that. Look at the founders and their collective belief structure. You are on the right path.

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

When the founders talked about different religions, the founders meant different forms of Christianity.

That isn't true.

They realized that the "radical" experiment they were putting in place; people governing themselves, required one key characteristic - Virtue.

Virtue was only possible when people knew they were held accountable for their actions/thoughts even when nobody else was in the room - Faith

Authentic faith could not be forced. It had to be something that was real and a function of supreme truth and the freedom to choose. That meant that information had to be available, openly disucssed, etc...

Hence the 1st amendment.

 

[AgEngDawg]

That isn't true.

They realized that the "radical" experiment they were putting in place; people governing themselves, required one key characteristic - Virtue.

Virtue was only possible when people knew they were held accountable for their actions/thoughts even when nobody else was in the room - Faith

Authentic faith could not be forced. It had to be something that was real and a function of supreme truth and the freedom to choose. That meant that information had to be available, openly disucssed, etc...

Hence the 1st amendment.

I think you are misinterpreting what I said.

If you sat down and questioned everyone at the Constitutional Convention in detail, when you asked them about freedom of religion, they would understand it to be the different sects of Christianity. They did not have Buddhism, Islam, etc. in their thought process.

Even the deists were basically heretical Christians.

 

[hmt5000]

More specifically, the part of "natures god" why say natures god and not just god?

Because they knew people worshipped different gods. So by stripping it down to natures god it is implied that its every god and your god specifically.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

by collective belief structure, I am referring to the fact that most were freemasons, who believe that you must believe in "a higher power" to be in their ranks.

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

I think you are misinterpreting what I said.

If you sat down and questioned everyone at the Constitutional Convention in detail, when you asked them about freedom of religion, they would understand it to be the different sects of Christianity. They did not have Buddhism, Islam, etc. in their thought process.

Even the deists were basically heretical Christians.

Again, this isn't accurate.

Here is the actual Bill No. 82. Tell me where it only mentions Christianity? It doesn't and Jefferson was well aware of Islam. He was influenced heavily by John Locke, who wrote about the concept of freedom of religion heavily.

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/right-conscience-locke-jefferson

82. A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom​

Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that1 Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint;2 that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion,3 who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its influence on reason alone;4 that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors,4 is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness; and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary5 rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than6 our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also7 to corrupt the principles of that very8 religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction;9 that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact10 that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
And though we well know that this Assembly, elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act11 irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

This is a hard pill to swallow, and the underlying idea is even harder.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Again, this isn't accurate.

Here is the actual Bill No. 82. Tell me where it only mentions Christianity? It doesn't and Jefferson was well aware of Islam. He was influenced heavily by John Locke, who wrote about the concept of freedom of religion heavily.

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/right-conscience-locke-jefferson

82. A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom​

Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that1 Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint;2 that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion,3 who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its influence on reason alone;4 that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors,4 is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness; and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary5 rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than6 our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also7 to corrupt the principles of that very8 religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction;9 that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact10 that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
And though we well know that this Assembly, elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act11 irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.

PUHLEEEAAAZEEEE!!!

There was no need to mention Christianity because that is what they understood as religion.

You are talking about when Jefferson had to LEARN about Islam during the Barbary War which was way after the first amendment was passed.

You are vastly mistaken if you think that the founding fathers were overwhelmingly thinking of religions other than the various sects of Christianity when the Constitution was written.

 

[Hoosier in Mad Town]

PUHLEEEAAAZEEEE!!!

There was no need to mention Christianity because that is what they understood as religion.

You are talking about when Jefferson had to LEARN about Islam during the Barbary War which was way after the first amendment was passed.

You are vastly mistaken if you think that the founding fathers were overwhelmingly thinking of religions other than the various sects of Christianity when the Constitution was written.

Jefferson's records show he purchased his copy of the Quaran (which sits in the Smithsonian) in 1765.

You are yet again misinformed. You can't have a virtuous people, who are truly free, if they don't have the capacity to make their own decisions (within God's will). Choosing your worldview is primary to the objectives of the Founding Fathers. You can't mandate a religion, let alone a sect, if you want a virtuous people. They were smart enough to understand this concept.

Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

The trusted source for information on Thomas Jefferson and his world

www.monticello.org

 

[American Deplorable]

This is a hard pill to swallow, and the underlying idea is even harder.

Why?

 

[Tell_Sackett]

Jefferson's records show he purchased his copy of the Quaran (which sits in the Smithsonian) in 1765.

You are yet again misinformed. You can't have a virtuous people, who are truly free, if they don't have the capacity to make their own decisions (within God's will). Choosing your worldview is primary to the objectives of the Founding Fathers. You can't mandate a religion, let alone a sect, if you want a virtuous people. They were smart enough to understand this concept.

Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia

The trusted source for information on Thomas Jefferson and his world

www.monticello.org

Religion in the context of the Bill of Rights meant religious sect of Christianity. It could not mean anything else or the writers would have put multiple contradictions throughout nearly every State Constitution in place at the time. Here is a snippet of New Hampshire's for context which was ratified during the same time period as the Bill of Rights. Just because Jefferson had a copy of the Quran means little. This is one example but nearly every State Constitution forbid the establishment of one religious sect, but yet required all representatives to be Christians and further required oaths by representatives that the OT and NT Scripture was inspired by God and Jesus Christ was the Son of God in the same breath. That can only mean "Religion" in this context meant denomination or sect and Christianity was assumed.


New Hampshire
http://www.wordservice.org/State Constitutions/usa1035.htm
ART. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience and reason; and no person shall be hurt, molested, or restrained in his person, liberty, or estate for worshipping God in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession, sentiments, or persuasion; provided he doth not disturb the public peace or disturb others in their religious worship.
ART. VI. As morality and piety, rightly grounded on evangelical principles, will give the best and greatest security to government, and will lay in the hearts of men the strongest obligations to due subjection; and as a knowledge of these is most likely to be propagated through a society by the institution of the public worship of the Deity, and of public instruction in morality and religion; therefore, to promote those important purposes the people of this State have a right to empower, and do hereby fully empower, the legislature to authorize, from time to time, the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies within this State, to make adequate provisions, at their own expense, for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality.
Provided notwithstanding, That the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies, shall at all times have the exclusive right of electing their own public teachers, and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance. And no person, or any one particular religious sect or denomination, shall ever be compelled to pay toward the support of the teacher or teachers of another persuasion, sect, or denomination. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves quietly and as good subjects of the State, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law. And nothing herein shall be understood to affect any former contracts made for the support of the ministry; but all such contracts shall remain and be in the same state as if this constitution had not been made.

SEC. XIV. Every member of the house of representatives shall be chosen by ballot, and for two years at least next preceding his election shall have been an inhabitant of this State, shall have an estate within the district which he may be chosen to represent, of the value of one hundred pounds, one-half of which to be a freehold, whereof he is seized in his own right; shall be at the time of his election an inhabitant of the town, parish, or place he may be chosen to represent; shall be of the Protestant religion, and shall cease to represent such town, parish, or place immediately on his ceasing to be qualified as aforesaid.

 

[AgEngDawg]

Religion in the context of the Bill of Rights meant religious sect of Christianity. It could not mean anything else or the writers would have put multiple contradictions throughout nearly every State Constitution in place at the time. Here is a snippet of New Hampshire's for context which was ratified during the same time period as the Bill of Rights. Just because Jefferson had a copy of the Quran means little. This is one example but nearly every State Constitution forbid the establishment of one religious sect, but yet required all representatives to be Christians and further required oaths by representatives that the OT and NT Scripture was inspired by God and Jesus Christ was the Son of God in the same breath. That can only mean "Religion" in this context meant denomination or sect and Christianity was assumed.


New Hampshire
http://www.wordservice.org/State Constitutions/usa1035.htm
ART. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience and reason; and no person shall be hurt, molested, or restrained in his person, liberty, or estate for worshipping God in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession, sentiments, or persuasion; provided he doth not disturb the public peace or disturb others in their religious worship.
ART. VI. As morality and piety, rightly grounded on evangelical principles, will give the best and greatest security to government, and will lay in the hearts of men the strongest obligations to due subjection; and as a knowledge of these is most likely to be propagated through a society by the institution of the public worship of the Deity, and of public instruction in morality and religion; therefore, to promote those important purposes the people of this State have a right to empower, and do hereby fully empower, the legislature to authorize, from time to time, the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies within this State, to make adequate provisions, at their own expense, for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality.
Provided notwithstanding, That the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies, shall at all times have the exclusive right of electing their own public teachers, and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance. And no person, or any one particular religious sect or denomination, shall ever be compelled to pay toward the support of the teacher or teachers of another persuasion, sect, or denomination. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves quietly and as good subjects of the State, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law. And nothing herein shall be understood to affect any former contracts made for the support of the ministry; but all such contracts shall remain and be in the same state as if this constitution had not been made.

SEC. XIV. Every member of the house of representatives shall be chosen by ballot, and for two years at least next preceding his election shall have been an inhabitant of this State, shall have an estate within the district which he may be chosen to represent, of the value of one hundred pounds, one-half of which to be a freehold, whereof he is seized in his own right; shall be at the time of his election an inhabitant of the town, parish, or place he may be chosen to represent; shall be of the Protestant religion, and shall cease to represent such town, parish, or place immediately on his ceasing to be qualified as aforesaid.

Exactly. It is fantasy to believe otherwise.

 

[American Deplorable]

Religion in the context of the Bill of Rights meant religious sect of Christianity. It could not mean anything else or the writers would have put multiple contradictions throughout nearly every State Constitution in place at the time. Here is a snippet of New Hampshire's for context which was ratified during the same time period as the Bill of Rights. Just because Jefferson had a copy of the Quran means little. This is one example but nearly every State Constitution forbid the establishment of one religious sect, but yet required all representatives to be Christians and further required oaths by representatives that the OT and NT Scripture was inspired by God and Jesus Christ was the Son of God in the same breath. That can only mean "Religion" in this context meant denomination or sect and Christianity was assumed.


New Hampshire
http://www.wordservice.org/State Constitutions/usa1035.htm
ART. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience and reason; and no person shall be hurt, molested, or restrained in his person, liberty, or estate for worshipping God in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession, sentiments, or persuasion; provided he doth not disturb the public peace or disturb others in their religious worship.
ART. VI. As morality and piety, rightly grounded on evangelical principles, will give the best and greatest security to government, and will lay in the hearts of men the strongest obligations to due subjection; and as a knowledge of these is most likely to be propagated through a society by the institution of the public worship of the Deity, and of public instruction in morality and religion; therefore, to promote those important purposes the people of this State have a right to empower, and do hereby fully empower, the legislature to authorize, from time to time, the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies within this State, to make adequate provisions, at their own expense, for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality.
Provided notwithstanding, That the several towns, parishes, bodies corporate, or religious societies, shall at all times have the exclusive right of electing their own public teachers, and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance. And no person, or any one particular religious sect or denomination, shall ever be compelled to pay toward the support of the teacher or teachers of another persuasion, sect, or denomination. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves quietly and as good subjects of the State, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law. And nothing herein shall be understood to affect any former contracts made for the support of the ministry; but all such contracts shall remain and be in the same state as if this constitution had not been made.

SEC. XIV. Every member of the house of representatives shall be chosen by ballot, and for two years at least next preceding his election shall have been an inhabitant of this State, shall have an estate within the district which he may be chosen to represent, of the value of one hundred pounds, one-half of which to be a freehold, whereof he is seized in his own right; shall be at the time of his election an inhabitant of the town, parish, or place he may be chosen to represent; shall be of the Protestant religion, and shall cease to represent such town, parish, or place immediately on his ceasing to be qualified as aforesaid.

This is just inaccurate.

A state constitution doesn’t reflect how they thought the country as a whole should operate. You know federalism…

If The Founders wanted to exclude certain religions across the whole of the country, or force another type like Christianity, they simply would have said so.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

That is in context of one state.....but that is not what this thread is about.

And no person, or any one particular religious sect or denomination, shall ever be compelled to pay toward the support of the teacher or teachers of another persuasion, sect, or denomination. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves quietly and as good subjects of the State, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.


In this particular paragraph, you see mid way:".........denomonation. And every denomination of Christians...." which is to affirm "also" and "and" no mention of Christian before that.

Understand guys, I am a Christian, but the thread topic has been slightly skewed..............

ask yourself this question:

Why would a group of Freemasons, who in their own brotherhood, require a belief in a higher power, (that is not nessessarily Christ or GOD), create and country, from which principles of Christianity would lay the foundation for its laws and traditions, which would alienate themselves from their brotherhood and other prospective settlers from migrating there? It make no sense.

Then during its formation, include the first protection that limits power of congress to make any law against any religion?

The first amendment is clear.

But the point of this thread is:

why does the term say "law of nature and nature's GOD"? Why not just say GOD, as opposed to "nature's GOD" Does this infer that nature's GOD and mans GOD are different?

 

[Tell_Sackett]

Maryland - http://www.wordservice.org/State Constitutions/usa1019.htm
That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice; unless, under color of religion, any man shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others, in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any particular place of worship, or any particular ministry; yet the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general and equal tax for the support of the Christian religion;

 

[Tell_Sackett]

Delaware - http://www.wordservice.org/State Constitutions/usa1020.htm
ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced."
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration." And all officers shall also take an oath of office.


We can keep going.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

their aint no reference to twitter either

 

[American Deplorable]

That is in context of one state.....but that is not what this thread is about.

And no person, or any one particular religious sect or denomination, shall ever be compelled to pay toward the support of the teacher or teachers of another persuasion, sect, or denomination. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves quietly and as good subjects of the State, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.


In this particular paragraph, you see mid way:".........denomonation. And every denomination of Christians...." which is to affirm "also" and "and" no mention of Christian before that.

Understand guys, I am a Christian, but the thread topic has been slightly skewed..............

ask yourself this question:

Why would a group of Freemasons, who in their own brotherhood, require a belief in a higher power, (that is not nessessarily Christ or GOD), create and country, from which principles of Christianity would lay the foundation for its laws and traditions, which would alienate themselves from their brotherhood and other prospective settlers from migrating there? It make no sense.

Then during its formation, include the first protection that limits power of congress to make any law against any religion?

The first amendment is clear.

But the point of this thread is:

why does the term say "law of nature and nature's GOD"? Why not just say GOD, as opposed to "nature's GOD" Does this infer that nature's GOD and mans GOD are different?

Man is a part of nature.

Nature has laws some of which mankind understand and others which we still have no clue or that are yet undiscovered.

Another important note would be that The Founders would have capitalized “God” when speaking about the Christian entity. God with a lower case g implies something completely different, and much more broad, than god with an upper case G (a proper noun).

Obviously starting a sentence with either one further complicates the matter in the English language. The Founders weren’t stupid. Being able to read, write, and properly articulate a point we’re very powerful tools at that time.

They capitalized the G in question because they were Christians themselves. That being said, they wrote exactly what they meant to say. They believed the Christian god created nature and nature’s laws but still decided not to impose that view on everyone else.

 

[Deleted member 2886]

That is in context of one state.....but that is not what this thread is about.

And no person, or any one particular religious sect or denomination, shall ever be compelled to pay toward the support of the teacher or teachers of another persuasion, sect, or denomination. And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves quietly and as good subjects of the State, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.


In this particular paragraph, you see mid way:".........denomonation. And every denomination of Christians...." which is to affirm "also" and "and" no mention of Christian before that.

Understand guys, I am a Christian, but the thread topic has been slightly skewed..............

ask yourself this question:

Why would a group of Freemasons, who in their own brotherhood, require a belief in a higher power, (that is not nessessarily Christ or GOD), create and country, from which principles of Christianity would lay the foundation for its laws and traditions, which would alienate themselves from their brotherhood and other prospective settlers from migrating there? It make no sense.

Then during its formation, include the first protection that limits power of congress to make any law against any religion?

The first amendment is clear.

But the point of this thread is:

why does the term say "law of nature and nature's GOD"? Why not just say GOD, as opposed to "nature's GOD" Does this infer that nature's GOD and mans GOD are different?

This threads subject matter is really fascinating.
I'd like to participate, though am highly aware of the fact that I must tread very carefully lest I once again become the target of dogmatic mobbing & scapegoating.

So just gonna state here, that I'm answering solely with direct regard to the context of Freemasonry and not Christianity or the Founding Fathers.

From what I've read, it seems the Freemasons are likely a sect, or variant of ancient, or Primordial, Gnosticism maybe?

I've read that some Gnostics, -(Neoplatonism, Valentinianism), believe the Christian God is the false creator(*of dense materiality) god, -[J]Yaldabaoth or Demiurgos, etc.

Personally and intuitively, it seems there's validity to these ideological conceptions.
My opinion here is influenced by, and arises from several OB experiences which I've yet to fully comprehend.

I currently think the creator "god", of this physical realm comprised from dense matter constructs infused/ensouled with Spirit, is not the real True God/Source and rather something else altogether.

Perhaps an abomination, a corrupter of God's Light.
Almost like an entity has usurped some finite aspect within the infinite True God, by condensing/perverting God's infinite Spiritual Light to create this spiritually [con]densed matter realm that it may proliferate and perpetuate it's "god"-hood delusion.

I kinda think it's created a sort of Spiritual trap that somehow entices/attracts and shackles Spiritual/Divine Essence within dense matter constructs in order to essentially harvest the energy it requires to exist,....akin to a parasite.

Really unsure whether I can actually clearly articulate exactly what I'm trying to, because I suck at communication and this is extremely complex.
So I'll paste a relevant section of literature which may assist with what I'm broadly alluding to regarding the OP(*originally posted-thread topic),-and the occultic(*less discernable), -nature of Freemasonry relative to the more common institutionalized religious Christian perspectives.

Spoiler: 🕳️

"Freemasons claim that Masonry is open to any one of any faith and that it is a brotherhood to help other Masons."
"This is used as a trap to entice new victims into their secret order."
"All Freemasons take a deadly oath for each degree up to the 33rd degree."
"They swear allegiance to Masonry above God and country and under pain of death, and swear never to reveal the secrets of Freemasonry-not even to their wives."
"Therefore, no matter what a Mason claims about their supposed good works or good intentions, they cannot be believed."
"Their real purpose is to undermine the teachings of Christianity."
"They are the true masters of deceit."
"Specifically anti Christian, Masonry is working for a secular -humanist new world order -a Masonic Republic."
"At Catholic University, in Washington, D.C., on June 50, 1990, in a speech to the World Apostolate of Fatima, Father Robert J. Bradley, 5. stated, "Masonry is Secular Humanisin incarnate. Masonry is also Satanism incarnate."
"The official position of American Freemasonry has been outlined in their publication The New Age."
"The September 1950 issue describes "God's Plan in America" (according to the distorted view of Masonry) and asserts that Masonry is God's plan for America and that Christianity is in opposition to this plan of God."
"Masons freely invoke the name of "God" but their god is not the God of the Bible."
"Even some Catholics condemn this occult society, in 1829, Pope Pius VIII warned Catholics concerning Masonry, "Their law is untruth; their God is the devil; and their cult is turpitude."
"In other reports, they describe some of the past Masonic successes in starting wars, spawning revolutions, causing assassinations and overthrowing organizations and even governments."
"Their diabolical activities in America and their plans "for a new world Masonic Order will be revealed; and their promotion of the deadly heresy of indifferentism (which maintains that all religions are of equal value) will be discussed."
"As a Mason works his way up through the 33 degrees of the Scottish Rite, he is promised that he will attain the secret knowledge of the "ancients"
-secrets available only to the illuminated or Gnostic adepts." "Masonry is a pagan religion which adopts various religious symbols to deceive the unwary, as in the case of the letter "G" which is often used within the two other Masonic symbols, the square and the compass."
"Many uninformed Christians assume that this "G" stands for the Trinitarian God, when it actually represents the Masonic gnosis or generation." "The Ancient Plan of Secret Societies Huntington House 1990) asserts, "Though few Masons know it, the god of Masonry is Lucifer."
"What's the difference between (worship of) Lucifer and Satan? "Luciferians think they are doing good." This is the ultimate secret of Masonry and of similar secret quasi-Masonic societies - the worship of Lucifer."
"William T. Still writes that "Masons believe Lucifer never fell to earth; that Lucifer is really God, and has been since the dawn of creation."
"Adonay is their blasphemous term for the one true God of Christendom, whom Luciferians denounce as the god of evil."
"Masonry's god is the devil." "Lower degree Freemasons are not told of this secret and higher degree Freemasons will never admit it for the oaths forbid them to divulge Masonic secrets."
"Masons take blood oaths in which they swear undivided primary allegiance to Masonry-over Christ, over country, and over their wives and family under pain of a violent death."
"A third Masonic evil is their promotion of the idea that all religions are equal."
"This is the heresy of Indifferentism, that would equate Christianity with Hinduism, with Buddhism, with aboriginal pantheism." "However their unconstrained hatred of Christianity belies this feigned equality." "Unfortunately, the ethnic and religious diversity in America subtly indoctrinates the unsuspecting Christians."

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Man is a part of nature.

Nature has laws some of which mankind understand and others which we still have no clue or that are yet undiscovered.

Another important note would be that The Founders would have capitalized “God” when speaking about the Christian entity. God with a lower case g implies something completely different, and much more broad, than god with an upper case G (a proper noun).

Obviously starting a sentence with either one further complicates the matter in the English language. The Founders weren’t stupid. Being able to read, write, and properly articulate a point we’re very powerful tools at that time.

They capitalized the G in question because they were Christians themselves. That being said, they wrote exactly what they meant to say. They believed the Christian god created nature and nature’s laws but still decided not to impose that view on everyone else.

That is a very good point. The letter G capitalized does have absolute significance. I noticed that when you referred to the Christian God, in your last sentence, are you not a Christian?

Remember that Jefferson wrote his own bible............without the miracles of Jesus.

The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:

 

[American Deplorable]

That is a very good point. The letter G capitalized does have absolute significance. I noticed that when you referred to the Christian God, in your last sentence, are you not a Christian?

Remember that Jefferson wrote his own bible............without the miracles of Jesus.

The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:

When I wrote that post I was thinking strictly along factual lines so the Christian god = God. Put another way, if we were posting on the god of Muslims it would = Allah . I was just substituting the proper noun for different wording.

Obviously I’m not nearly as articulate as a Founding Father since I didn’t even reread my post to correct my phone from “we’re “ to were* lol

 

[Pineapple]

Again, this isn't accurate.

Here is the actual Bill No. 82. Tell me where it only mentions Christianity? It doesn't and Jefferson was well aware of Islam. He was influenced heavily by John Locke, who wrote about the concept of freedom of religion heavily.

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/right-conscience-locke-jefferson

82. A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom​

Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that1 Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint;2 that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion,3 who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its influence on reason alone;4 that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors,4 is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness; and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary5 rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than6 our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right; that it tends also7 to corrupt the principles of that very8 religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction;9 that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact10 that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
And though we well know that this Assembly, elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act11 irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.

Thomas Jeferson – President

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

US History Quotes About God and the Bible - Steven Andrew, Pastor of USA Christian Church

American History Quotes About God and the Bible “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.” Psalm 33:12 The USA is a covenant Christain nation. We are one nation under God. The Christian majority is the largest group in America (~75%, 2012...

usa.church

 

[American Deplorable]

Thomas Jeferson – President

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

US History Quotes About God and the Bible - Steven Andrew, Pastor of USA Christian Church

American History Quotes About God and the Bible “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.” Psalm 33:12 The USA is a covenant Christain nation. We are one nation under God. The Christian majority is the largest group in America (~75%, 2012...

usa.church

Not sure what you are trying to show with both of these quotes besides Jefferson acknowledging his personal bias towards his own religion.

Neither elude to what Jefferson believed religious freedom meant.

 

[Pineapple]

As to John Locke?

The Bible is one of the greatest blessings bestowed by God on the children of men. It has God for its Author, salvation for its end, and truth without any mixture for its matter. It is all pure, all sincere; nothing too much; nothing wanting!

John Locke

 

[American Deplorable]

“Thomas Jefferson overshadowed his close friend and coadjutor, James Madison, in many ways but in one, at least, Madison was demonstrably superior to his Monticello neighbor--in his ability to keep his religious views private. Despite a desire to be "most scrupulously reserved on the subject" of religion, Jefferson by the end of his life revealed more about his faith than any other founding father. He divulged so much about so sensitive a subject for one reason only: to defend himself against Federalist charges, broadcast in the election of 1800, that he was an atheist.

Jefferson spent the last twenty-five years of his life refuting these aspersions, although at no time did he conceal his deviations from orthodox Christianity; the Trinity, for example, he dismissed as the "abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus;" the vicarious atonement was a compound of "follies, falsehoods, and charlatanisms;" predestination and original sin were "heresies of bigotry and fanaticism." With breathtaking intellectual audacity Jefferson compiled an edition of the New Testament containing what he judged to be the authentic sayings of Jesus, an exercise he considered as easy as finding "diamonds in a dunghill." As a result, it is possible to ascertain precisely what aspects of Christianity Jefferson accepted and what he rejected. The abundance of evidence allows us to fix him, as his grandson did, on the Unitarian band of the religious spectrum of his day.”

"James Madison and the Social Untility of Religion: Risks vs. Rewards," by James Hutson (James Madison: Philosopher and Practitioner of Liberal Democracy, A Symposium held on March 16, 2001, at the Library of Congress)

James Madison and the Social Utility of Religion: Risks vs. Rewards, by James Hutson, Library of Congress. Thomas Jefferson overshadowed his close friend and coadjutor, James Madison, in many ways but in one, at least, Madison was demonstrably superior to his Monticello neighbor-in his...

www.loc.gov

“The first principle Madison enunciated was that any government embrace of religion violated the fundamental natural right to freedom of conscience which had been reserved by individual citizens when they left the state of nature to enter civil society..”

Since the states ratified The Constitution its not hard to see the majority of The Founding Fathers believed, as Madison did, that government embrace of a religion in any way was a violation of freedom of conscience which is in itself a God given right.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

When I wrote that post I was thinking strictly along factual lines so the Christian god = God. Put another way, if we were posting on the god of Muslims it would = Allah . I was just substituting the proper noun for different wording.

Obviously I’m not nearly as articulate as a Founding Father since I didn’t even reread my post to correct my phone from “we’re “ to were* lol

And what about the other content in my reply?

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Thomas Jeferson – President

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

US History Quotes About God and the Bible - Steven Andrew, Pastor of USA Christian Church

American History Quotes About God and the Bible “Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance.” Psalm 33:12 The USA is a covenant Christain nation. We are one nation under God. The Christian majority is the largest group in America (~75%, 2012...

usa.church

Then why write your own bible that discounts Jesus? Actions speak louder than words.

 

[American Deplorable]

And what about the other content in my reply?

Which part?

 

[Pineapple]

Then why write your own bible that discounts Jesus? Actions speak louder than words.

“Instead, Jefferson’s Bible focused on Jesus as a man of morals, a teacher whose truths were expressed without the help of miracles or the supernatural powers of God.”

It didn’t discount anything. Your reaction is exactly why he kept it private.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

“Instead, Jefferson’s Bible focused on Jesus as a man of morals, a teacher whose truths were expressed without the help of miracles or the supernatural powers of God.”

It didn’t discount anything. Your reaction is exactly why he kept it private.

Respectfully, that is not true at all. The Jefferson Bible, basically is the bible without the miracles of Jesus. The resurrection for example is not in the Jefferson Bible.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Which part?

The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”: